Channan anew

I don't know if anyone else noticed but the Heian/Pinan to Channan thread has been getting complex and perhaps starting again will make it clearer.

First everyone, FightingArts.com is an open discussion forum. The topic may be Karate, but any FA.com member may join in. So you have dedicated karate-ka of all stripes, people who practice other arts and want to see what karate is all about, people who don't believe in tradtional karate and want to wet their claws or logic against it's existence and practices, and others of all stripes.

When a discussion gets interesting everyone joins in and it becomes difficult to always keep separated who anyone is.

For myself as a martial artist who practices Isshinryu and a number of other arts I have absolutely no interest in Channan, Pinans or Heians. My art doesn't use them, my art works and has a lifetime of infinite study in its own right, I have no interest in tacking anything else on. I am fully engaged in ongoing studies and efforts on my own arts.

For myself as a martial researcher, I have an avid interest in everything. I've translated books in French into English on the Bubishi, Mabuni's early writings on Sanchin, Seiunchin and Seipai, and other works. I've written a few articles about various aspects of different arts. Along the way I've made many friends around the world who've shared tons of information with me, most in confidence which I don't break, ever. But I still try to understand the depth and bredth of the arts. Not for my students, only for myself.

As a reseacher the existence or non-existence of Channan kata holds interest, but only in its historical context. One of my friends Joe Swift living in Tokyo, knoweldgeable in Japanese as a translator, and actually teaching karate in Japan himself, has written about his Channan study, and as I understand it hasn't found anyone practicing theform along his way. That means just that he hasn't seen it in his study and he does travel to Okinawa too.

Of course with the disporia of Okinawan's in the depression across the world, and the intense bombing of Okinawa in WWII, resulting in tremendous loss to Okinawan karate (the least of the losses), it may well be if Channan survives on the Island it remains very private. That doesn't preclude it remaining in other Okinawan communites around the world. I have actually read Okinawan Hogan really only is alive overseas anymore and in Okinawa almost all is in the Japanese language too.

As we know there are various versions of Channan showing up. From Dr. Sheissman's (myspelling may be off) out of Shotokan, to Mr. Mertz's version, to the one Mr. Wax is describing. When you can see a version you can at least make a somewhat informed guess to it's potential history.
When you can't see it, it becomes more problematical.

Let me digress. Once upon a time, about 30 years ago I was lied to my face by someone of Mr. Wax's generation as to the intenst authenicity of their art from Japan. They were a strong force in the tournament circuit. Their people were fast and strong with their technique. And at that time there was no information about many arts available. And they had a strong organization. As martial artists they weren't bad.

But time passes and 15 years later I learn their house was built on lies. They were real but absolutely none of their 'history' was. And you know that does make a difference. It doesn't detract from what they can do, it does however make you question everything they said, do say or will say forever.

On the internet we cannot prove anyting, we can only discuss. Making strong claims (by ANYONE) gets no where.

If we look at the Okinawan video record we see several trends. No.1 is most of the time the demonstrations are walk throughs for many reasons, as much as not to make a mistake in public, as well as to hide the full transmission. There are even senior instructors how consciously changed their demonstrations so others would not know the correct way.

All of which is fine, they're just demonstrating, not passing a truth test.

On the other hand there are those who kick butt when they demonstrate. Such as the young Hiagonna Morio, or http://youtube.com/watch?v=mGIHXVeL24o&mode=related&search=uechi%20ryu

They're not trying to hide anything because they know they can kick butt, and want you to see everything they have. Of course they don't show you the myriad of steps it takes to get there, and in effect are showing you little.

But the Okinawan's go to both extremes, and there are plenty who follow the older tradition and don't share anything. But of course they don't talk about what they're not showing either.

At the very best they show a shape you can reflect on. Only the misinformed will try and learn from that shape.

There is no right tradtion, they're all traditional.

Mr. Wax, I've actually had Mr. Heart call me. I liked our discussion and feel he has always been truthfull and constistent describing his practices. But rationally that doesn't mean I can understand their truth because I can't see them.

Nor can I travel to do so, because teaching for free for decades doesn't pay for travel bills, if I had such inclination.

What that leaves us with is discussion.

We all want to understand the past, even those who don't believe in Karate still want to undestand why and how things happened.

I've practiced many arts, some for a while and some for an instant. I don't know much, but I do know before I can honestly believe there is a link between the Okinawan arts, without outstanding documentation which doesn't exist, I first want to see a Chinese practionier performing a form that even remotely looks like something that is done on Okinawa. Then I'd say there was a credible source to consider.

In the case of other research I'd honestly like to see the same. For example, with absolutely no disrespect to your practice, I'd foremost want to see an Okinawan practicine Channan kata. But baring that seeing even the grainiest, poorest shape of the form by someone else presents a link to consider, that no discussion can resolve.

Yet I agree with you. You have every reason not to share that shape. The path of study is very long and a glimpse of a kata doesn't describe anything that goes into crafting that version.

Earlier today I posted a link to OkinawaBBTV showing the Kasiba Juku Pinan 1,2 and 3. There they took the time to share a slice of their practice. Not the final goal, but a part of their way towards that goal.

It may or may not make much sense to any of us, but they did take the time to share a piece of their private practice (and they are a small and on the whole private group). I don't know why they did so, but the fact they choose to make it available to view does say something.

I don't know much. My instructors are or were all better than I will ever be, but I do my best to try and make my students better than them.

Lets try and discuss with respect, and perhaps even learn.

I am mainly a goju-ka, so I don't use the Pinan series in my training.

Was taught the series however--the heian version anyway.

But as a researcher I would be VERY interested in an extent Channan kata.

Couple of problems though.

One of the few historical refrences we have for the Channan rather stongly suggests that the Pinan were instantly recognizable by a student that learned the Channan.

Add to this that the Channan were largely replaced by the Pinan by Okinwans that were in postion to have learned the Channan themselves.

In brief, I strongly suspect that the Channan were basically the "same" as the Pinans.

In effect that the Channans and Pinans are more or less simple variations on a theme.

Much as the multiple versions of Bassai or Seisan.

Love to see the kata--but then again I also love looking at the "other" versions of Seisan floating about.

Just an opinion of course.

COWARDS COWARDS COWARDS>>>>>>>>

I can't add anything. I look at it the same way.

but for giggles, lets get technical on this subject for a change...that ought to keep the fakes out.

sometimes for fun, I like to look at the pinan kata with particular methods of Goju I'm currently learning in mind. I don't spend time on it...it's just for fun as a change of pace.

* opening to pinan shodan -> see sepai (about 3/4 of the way thru).

* all of the 'shuto' in pinans ->when changed to circular you have a technique found in seisan. which, in my biased opinion has alot more versitile follow up options than the linear and often highly stylized shuto.

* beginning of pinan sandan ->seiunchin after first turn.

etc.... having learned the movements to pinan kata last year and combined with Goju application class this year from current instruction, it's interesting how non-goju kata can be anaylized the same way.

but is it any surprize to be able to pick apart another okinawan style's kata with your style in mind and come up with something that either already exists or very similar in principal? or even a completely dissimilar art like a non-kata system and see similarities or overlap? it's cool to see something familiar from T'ai Chi or a form in Baguazhang having overlap.

the order of things found in kata or I suppose we could call it the choreography is based on nothing more arbitrary than space conservation and perhaps efficiency of practice.

so if things overlap, particularly pinan with channan or the various Hakusuru kata...who cares that someone has a differing choreography? the question is, can they use it to train and can they use it to teach?

when we are young, it's easy to get trapped into thinking something with an old name must be more authentic. not the case. completely fabricated kata are made up from bits and pieces of classical kata and composed into a new kata which the creator then gives an old name to it in order to give it the 'authentic' touch.

same goes for style names. we had a fellow on here who was the creator of a 'unique' system and when asked why he decided to create a system instead of joining an established one the reply was something to the effect that advancement in the Japan system are political and somewhat prejudice to foreigners....why can't westeners start their own styles and grading councils?

interesting point...now tell me why you chose a Japanese sounding name for your new 'Ryu' and have the same kata names and curriculum as a Japanese style. lol

The reason is because it sells. they want the benefit of selling the product from it's name. superficial wide-eyed students don't care and can't verify legitimate kata, they want to collect 'em all - gimme yours and I'll give ya mine...

but psssst Victor, lets not tell anyone the true original Seisan that we've uncovered from the most unlikely of places....from the knights Templar.

The seisan you do is this Matsumura's wife's kata. The one where you fight with your baby on your back!

Ed,

I was on Okinawa in the 1940's not the 50's I no you can read but comprehention seems to be a lttle hazy for you.

I know you guys are probably can't affrod to come and train with me. (thats O.K.) And contrary to what you think I am not rubbing it in your face that I know the Channans and you don't heck you know Itosu's Pinan's and I don't. So I got a Solution for you lets put all this B.S. effort into some Reasearch you guys seem more school smart than I do so let try to find you the answers your looking for! Unless you are a bunch of panty waisted Mama's Boys!

We Need to compile a list of everyone that saw or supposedly did Channan kata's and what they said and go from there. Here is my 2 C's: of the folks I know of!
Yui Fei
Li ning Jan
Peichin Takahara
Kusanku
Tode Sakugawa
Sokon Bushi Matsumura
Choyu Motobu
Choki Motobu
Ankoh Itosu
Ankoh Azato
Kosoku Matsumora
Chojun Miyagi

Now lets keep going...

Now the only inprtant stuff is whatever they said regarding Channan Kata's only so we don't get off on a wild tangent or another subject.

Avery

If we don't know what it looked like how can we compare it?

The are about what 12-18 versions of bassai? and almost as many versions of seisen.

No way to tell if Motubu the younger's channan was anthing like Motobu the elders version--heck their actual "karate" is very different--why would their kata be the same?

Itosu phased out the Channan--or re-designed them and his good buddy Azato seems not to have taught them to anyone. And we have no clue what his loooked like.

Yui Fei was a chinese genral that pre-dates the the other folks by a considerable margin---the lord alone knows his kata "looked like" but given the wide diffrences between Okinawan karate and the Chiense arts that spawned it--chances are pretty good that they looked nothing alike.

Heck you can't find Okinawan kata that ARE practiced currently that match perfectly with Chinese arts--much less a extinct kata.

This is a little more fun---but still pretty jacked up "logic."

Research is not your Opion or your guess! I asked for written record not your oppion. How do you know if you have never seen either one. Now you are speculating.

We are not talking about Bassai or Seisan keep to the subject and task!

This Channan is supposed to be from Choki Motobu linage.

It should be the one Motobu is quoted referring in Karate no Kenkyu, 1934:

By complete coincidence I just saw a discussion regarding Channan on another forum today. The gist of the conversation was that it may well be that Motobu's son's organisation do have a kata called Channan but that it may well be a modern kata with an old name. I think the information may have come from Joe Swift who lives in Japan. I don't know if you've ever come across Joe but I'm sure you'll find an email address for him if you search the web. He may be able to provide some more info.

Its a private forum for members of Rick Clark's Ao Denkou Kai organisation.

The Kata Of Motobu

Although it is often alleged that Motobu knew only the katas Naihanchi Shodan and possibly Passai, in light of recent developments this appears to be a complete misinterpretation of Motobu's knowledge and method of teaching. It was quite a common practice in the old days to begin a student training with Naihanchi kata and only when he mastered it to a degree considered sufficient was a new form taught. This seems to be corroborated through the words of Konishi Yasuhiro (as told by Yamazaki Kiyoshi in an article on Konishi) (4):
"Konishi Sensei considered Motobu to be a martial genius and made every effort to train with him. Motobu Sensei's favorite Kata was the Naifanchin kata (another pronunciation of Niahanchi). As a teacher he knew many Kata, but would only teach them once the student had mastered Naifanchin."

Given Motobu's vast knowledge of Naihanchi, the applications of which were forged through actual altercations, it likely took a significant period of time to progress to another kata with him. Thus many of the modern stories which recount Motobu as knowing or having shown only the kata Naihanchi are told by those having trained for less than a year with him!

Further proof of Motobu's knowledge of other Kata comes inadvertently from Motobu himself. Motobu is quoted by Nakasone Genwa as describing a visit to Itosu Sensei (Itosu was perhaps the most famous karate teacher of his time) as follows:

"I visited him one day near the school, where we sat talking about the martial arts and current affairs. While I was there two to three students dropped by and sat talking with us. Itosu Sensei turned to the students and said 'Show us a kata!' The Kata they performed was very familiar to the Channan Kata that I knew but there were also some differences. Upon asking the students what the kata was, he replied, 'It is Pinan no Kata!'. The students left shortly after that, upon which I turned to Itosu Sensei and said 'I learned a Kata called Channan, but the Kata that those students just performed now was different, What is going on?" Itosu Sensei replied, "Yes, The kata is slightly different but the kata that you just saw is the kata that I have decided upon." (Nakasone 1934)

While it has been speculated that Motobu never learned the Pinan kata (sometimes known as Heian), it appears now that this information may be correct. Motobu learned from Itosu before Itosu had fully developed the Pinans, a time when the katas were still practiced in their prototype form.

We further know that Choki Motobu passed on a significant array of kata which are part of the curriculum as maintained by his son Chosei. They include Naihanchi Shodan and Nidan, Channan (the predecessor of the pinan kata which within the Motobu system are called Shiraguma no Kata), Passai, Wanshu, Wankan, Chinto, Kusanku, Chinti and others. This demonstrates that Motobu was far more knowledgeable in terms of the kata than many have given him credit for.

Move To Japan

In 1923 (Iwai 1994; other sources say 1921), perhaps in an effort to find greener pastures, Motobu moved with his family to the city of Osaka on mainland Japan. Not long afterwards he returned briefly to Okinawa for three months which he spent training with his brother Choyu. This was when a nineteen year old student of Choyu by the name of Seikichi Uehara first met Choki. Uehara recalled having Choki for a training partner: "Every time I punched Choki hit my arm before I could touch him. He hit it so hard he almost broke my arm" (Uehara 1992).

in comparing these with written form set Channan that Sensei Hart will be sending me ...

Good point, but I thought that Itosu Yatsune only created the Pinan forms (in 1901) and if memory serves me correct they were more based on the Jae Nam hyung, and only a little on Kong Sang Goon Hyung (Hancock, 2005). I am not a historian, so please, I am just curious.
Thanks!

The Heian kata are essentially the SAME as the older Okinawan Pinan (Pyong Ahn in Korean). The name is derived from the phrase Heiwa-Antei (Peace and Calmness). It is said that Grand Master Itosu has changed the order of the techniques in the Five Heians so that students first learn simplier movments (Heian 1&2) and then gadually proceed to more advanced techniques (Heian 3&4&5). Another idea/theory, is that grand master Itosu had derived these five katas from the much longer and complicated kata Kanku Dai (Kushanku

Pyong Ahn hyung (aka Heian aka Pinan) were created by Master Idos (Itosu Yasutsune) sometime between 1897 and 1913 (although I personally believe the time frame was 1903 to 1910). The form was derivative of the southern Shaolin form Chiang Nan (aka Jae Nam aka Channan) with possible later inclusion of select movements from Kong Sang Koon (aka Kushankun aka Kwanku). Recently, the form Chiang Nan resurfaced as traced through a Chinese martial art teacher living in the Phillipine Islands. Certain of his students ultimate ended up in the U.S. and have propogated this version of the Chiang Nan form along side a form known in the Phillipines as Panawan Panalo. Others claim these forms are not the original Channan known in Okinawa. The jury is still out.
_________________

think it is more complicated than that.
First, different theories claim different Pinan to be a result of reworking Channan. You have the following theories:

a) Pinan 1 (TSD Pyung Ahn 2) was Channan dai and Pinan 2 was Channan sho. [this is usually claimed by Matsumura Seit folks]
b) Pinan 1 (TSD Pyung Ahn 2) and 3, 4 were once Channan.
c) Pinan 1 - 4 were once Channan.
d) Pinan 1 (TSD Pyung Ahn 2) + Pinan 3 were Channan dai and Pinan 4 + 5 were Channan sho. [Elmar S.]
etc.

Elmar's Channan 1 roughly maps up with Pinan 1 (TSD Pyung Ahn 2) + Pinan 3 (the beginning of Pinan 3 left out) and his Channan 2 roughly maps up with Pinan 4 and 5 (again with the beginning of Pinan 5 left out).

Now consider this: if you cross check Elmar's Channan with Kushanku (Itosu Kushanku!), Passai (both dai and sho), Chinto and possibly Jion and cancel out the techniques that maps (and therefore probaby came from these forms), you won't have too much stuff left for Channan.

Avery

What "written records" do you have that maps that out?

Did Itosu leave somethings behind in terms of "offical" records of exactly what how Channan was done?

Love to see it--please present it.

Please provide the source cites for your conclusions.

As you say "please don't speculate"

Gotcha!!!!!

First off, not to be semantics, but if you can only choose one, and you choose none, then you have learned nothing and trained in nothing. Leaving you with nothing. Zen semantics aside, nothing is not always a good thing.

Secondly, if that's the case, then why did Funakoshi practice one form for nine years?

Nine years on one form!

If there is nothing to be gained from this, then the entire art we study is worthless and should be cast aside.

In all likelihood, we're just doing something wrong anyway...

So you're saying that you can't train without training in forms??

Hey, it may have worked for Funakoshi, but I could think of a lot more productuve things to train for 9 years than a single form....besides, are we talking about the same Funakoshi who singlehandedly did more to change the original purpose and meanings for forms practice than any other one single individual?
Part of our Guiding priciples in Ryukyu Kempo that were complied by Grandmaster Shigeru Nakamura states the following.

"In the past a single a kata was studied for 3 years. In the past a particular master studied a single kata for 10 years! "

This was not that uncommon in the past, if you think research it, the Okinawan Bushi or Warriors maybe learned one or two kata, and practiced (Mastered them) throughout their entire lives! Many of todays masters will tell you the same. This particular knowledge comes from Taika Seiyu Oyata (1998).
I think that a single kata can hold enough information and bunkai to be studied your wholelife, and still keep you learning new things form the forms. in this manner the practicioner opens his/her inner eyes and can see the true meaning behind the kata. It was not until the late 1800's that Masters started learning more and teaching more forms, such as GM Shigeru Nakamura who learned from several Masters Naihanchis from Chokki Motobu, Pinanas from Itosu, and on and on. Before this anly a 1- or2 forms were studied throughout the entire life of the bushi.

Avery

Now your getting sloppy.

Did Funakoshi even practice the Channan---please present the sources that Funakoshi even practiced them--by name.

As you say "please keep on task!!!!"

Gotcha again!

When karate increased in popularity on mainland Japan, a move to modify it to a position similar to Kendo and Judo, was endorsed. This changed the kata in form and bunkai (application of technique). Competition and militaristic doctrines forced traditional Okinawan karate to change and conform to the mainland Japan philosophy of “martial arts.” The focus had changed from a sole form of self-defense and character building, to a blend of self-defense, art (karate-do), sport, and nationalistic spirit.

Avery

If you can't keep on topic--AS YOU YOURSELF REQUESTED you should just shut up.

This is a discussion forum.

Not a "lets just post reams of random rambling drivel" forum.

Please obey the agreed upon rules of conduct--or go away.

Kyan Chotoku learned Seisan kata from Sokon Matsumura, the master of the Shuri-te branch. This kata contains long distance techniques like rensoku tsuki geri, which are representative of the shuri-te style. It was assumed that Seisan was the first kata taught to him by the great master Matsumura, and due to the age differences, was learned by Master Kyan at a tender age. This kata still remains as the first major Sukunaihayashi lineage kata to be taught in Seibukan. Seisan is a powerful kata, where quick changes from shiko dachi to zenkutsu dachi come into its own as a source of power. This ancient form was a favorite of Master Zenryo Shimabukuro, and was performed by him in many exhibitions. Even at an advanced age, Master Zenryo Shimabukuro used this kata to demonstrate his excellent fitness

Among the Pechin, a local form of wrestling ("te" or "di") was combined with the teachings of the Chinese martial advisors ("to-te" or "toudi") to create "uchinadi", or karate as it came to be called later. The karate that emerged from Shuri, called Shuri-te, coalesced in the late 1700s and early 1800s. Early seminal figures include "Toudi" Sakugawa, who was said to have studied with the military attaché named Kusanku, who visited Okinawa in the 1750s. Sokon Matsumura of Shuri was said to have been a student of Sakugawa. Many credit Matsumura with the consolidation and rationalization of Shuri-te, and thus with the invention of Shorin Ryu (as Shuri-te came to be called in the 20th century).

Avery

I have that book too!

But thanks for "reading" it to us.

This has nothing to do with any of the topics at hand, nor is this "new" information.

If your going to waste folks time/bandwidth---the least you could do make it interesting.

Your boring me again.

CXT,

It is rude to tell someone to shut up! This is reaserch from other places I have been to many forums on Channan Kata
I am giving you posts to me from other Individuals as part of research. I have said none of these things my self these are thing said by others to me! Please don't be angry CXT we are trying to get to the root of your Channan problems. to do that we must ask lots of questions and weigh the answers of what we find.

CXT,

Now I am talking to you!

Why were kata changed?

Why did the old Okinawans practice only one kata?

Why was the bunkia, Okuden, and oyo changed to Kata?

Why was Karate changed from meaning China Hand to empty hamd.

Why did Ankoh Itosu change and create new kata? What was wrong with the old kata?

Why was Karate changed before it went to Japam.

Why did Itosu, Asato, Miyagi, Funakoshi, Nagmine, Invent their own kata's

Why did Funakoshi change the Kata again!

Which kata are un-changed?

What were the benefits draw backs of these changes?

CXT,

Why did Itosu Delete Channan from the system and add his version's Pinnan to the system. How do we know he was qualified to do that? Why did he change the kata's?

Here is a Question someone once asked me! I would like to know your answer?

If the Okinawan's were so skilled at Karate why did they not fight back.

While we were there they would not fight us, instead they ran and hid like rabbits. If Karate is so good Mr. Wax why did the Chinese invent Gun powder.

Mr. Wax you talk about how great Karate is and how it can be used to safe lives instead of make money, so explain this to me Mr.Wax then why did one of your so called Okinawan Masters of Karate (Chotoku Kyan) starve himself to death in a Cave! Insted of Fighting.

T. Willis

Quote:

---

If Karate is so good Mr. Wax why did the Chinese invent Gun powder.

---

What?! That's a nonsequitor if I have ever read one. Ok, CXT is right! It's a bunch of kids using the same address and making goofy statements that go back and forth.

I guess someone's gotta close shop on these threads. It makee no sensee...

-B