lorn
(Newbie)
08/16/05 12:15 PM
What styles were used for greatswords?

im just wondering cause i likt that type of sword , the 2 handed great sword,

Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/16/05 01:01 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Read here: http://www.thehaca.com/

and talk to the form member Armed Man Piker


lorn
(Newbie)
08/16/05 02:21 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

i just saw a few of the clips from that site that had greatswords in them and man these guys know what they are doing

glad2bhere
(Enthusiast)
08/16/05 02:27 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Not following.

Are you using "great" in the sense of "outstanding" or "great" in the sense of "size" In the latter case (size) I think more of European kinds of swords. Asian sword has various two-handed swords as well. If you mean that two-handed swords are "great" (outstanding) I would concur but my personal preference is Asian rather than European so it would help me to contribute to know which culture you are focusing on, yes? The O-Dachi ("field sword") has at least three styles of swordsmanship in Japanese sword, and the Korean Ssang Soo Do would be the equivalent of the Japanese version, as it were. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


lorn
(Newbie)
08/16/05 03:40 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

no ,, im talking about the sword known as , the greatsword, its a midevil kind of thing,

Belnick
(Veteran)
08/17/05 03:21 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

Not following.

Are you using "great" in the sense of "outstanding" or "great" in the sense of "size" In the latter case (size) I think more of European kinds of swords. Asian sword has various two-handed swords as well. If you mean that two-handed swords are "great" (outstanding) I would concur but my personal preference is Asian rather than European so it would help me to contribute to know which culture you are focusing on, yes? The O-Dachi ("field sword") has at least three styles of swordsmanship in Japanese sword, and the Korean Ssang Soo Do would be the equivalent of the Japanese version, as it were. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce




http://images.google.se/images?q=greatsword&hl=sv&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi

:P

like conan
I am also a huge fan of these weapons

lorn I will buy this one when I can afford it
http://www.macallenarmourers.com/wallace_sword.htm


lorn
(Newbie)
08/17/05 04:50 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

yea , i havent seen a greatsword online that i had to have , but if i were to say ,it be the greatsword from the highlander movies , that thing look cool.

Belnick
(Veteran)
08/17/05 07:44 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

yea movies...
the 5th!!! highlander is on its way, although I only recon highlander 1, 2, 3 as the real deal

you mean the Macleod family sword ?

http://www.weaponmasters.com/images/products/website/HT-595_large.jpg


lorn
(Newbie)
08/17/05 08:06 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

yea somethign like that, but any kind of greatsword i see i will wond up likeing it, but to tell you the truth ,the great sword the villian was useing in the first highlander movie , rocked,

Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/17/05 08:43 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Highlander: There should have been only one!

Belnick
(Veteran)
08/17/05 09:00 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

yea somethign like that, but any kind of greatsword i see i will wond up likeing it, but to tell you the truth ,the great sword the villian was useing in the first highlander movie , rocked,




u mean the kurgan sword

http://www.afn.org/~afn33990/kurgan.jpg

http://www.weaponmasters.com/?ID=WEAPONS...LOCATION=PHOTOS


Quote:

Highlander: There should have been only one!




well I liked the second too, just because sean connery, and then the third was just to close the deal
the 4th is so stupid it is unbelievable, they mix a television show with a movie franshice


glad2bhere
(Enthusiast)
08/17/05 09:16 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

".....u mean the kurgan sword..."

Well and good, but thats what it was known as in the movie. Isn't there a technical name for that kind of sword? The term "greatsword" is not ringing any bells for me. The large weapon used in BRAVEHEART was occasionally referred to as a "claymore" in the media, but I don't think that was accurate. There was also the large sword used (thrown) by Rutger Hauer in LADYHAWK but I never heard anyone actually identify that weapon according to its architecture. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Armed_Man_Piker
(Member)
08/17/05 10:31 AM
Great Swords (Two-Handers) In the European Context

Quote:

What styles were used for greatswords? im just wondering cause i likt that type of sword , the 2 handed great sword,




First off, to answer Bruce's question--"great" is used in the European context as "big". Thus, a "great sword" is a "big sword".

Swords that were made for two-handed use were first seen employed by the Germans--specifically, by German mercenaries of Manfred of Sicily, during the Battle of Benevento against the French in 1266. Such swords were termed by the French as Grans espees d'Allemagne--"Great swords of Germany". According to Ewart Oakeshott, there are many references to such weapons in the 13th and 14th centuries--"Grant espees", "Grete Swerdes", etc.

By later (Renaissance) standards, these early great swords were actually "ba$tard swords"--i.e., they had a grip long enough for both hands, but were light enough to use with one hand as well. "True" two-handers, on the other hand, could only really be wielded effectively with both hands. Because of its unique characteristics, the ba$tard sword was thus not a "legitimate" two-hander or one-hander (hence the name).

The Highland Scots developed their own style of great sword, that was actually of true two-hander proportions. This weapon is commonly called a "claymore", though this specific term was actually first used to describe the later, single-handed, basket-hilted broadsword. In any case, the term "claymore" can be found in historical sources referring to both weapons. It is an English corruption of the Gaelic claidheamh mor, which means--you guessed it--"great sword".

In the 15th and 16th centuries, the "true" two-handed sword was really developed to its height. To the Germans, this weapon was commonly known as a zweihander ("two-hander"), bidenhander ("both-hander"), or a schlachtschwert ("battle sword"). It was one of the favored weapons of the doppelsoldner ("hirelings who draw double-pay"), who were the elite troops of the German landsknechte ("servants of the land") mercenaries.

This fully developed German two-hander was the biggest type of European sword--being up to 66 inches in length, and weighing in the 4.5-8 lb range. It featured a long ricasso (the blunt base of the blade), which was typically covered in leather, and could be grasped when one wanted to shorten one's grip on the weapon for various actions. When holding the sword this way, the parrierhaken ("parrying hooks") served as a secondary handguard. There were also often two side rings, one on each side of the quillon block.

Here's a German landsknecht two-hander:

http://therionarms.com/reenact/com348.jpg

Two-handers of this type (and some of simpler form--without the side rings or parrying hooks or both) were used in other parts of Europe as well. The Italians termed this weapon a spada da due mani ("two-handed sword") or spadone ("great sword"). In Spain, it was called an espadon ("great sword"), though a smaller, ba$tard-sword-sized version (like a German zweihander in minature) was preferred, and this was called a montante. To the French, the two-hander was known simply as an espee a deux mains. The English referred to it as a "two-handed sword", or a "slaughter sword" or "slath sword" (the latter two terms being corruptions of the German schlactschwert).

In military service, the two-hander was used by assault troops, to give close support to pikemen when two pike-blocks crashed together (halberdiers were also used in this role). They were also sometimes employed by members of the verloren haufe ("forlorn hope")--the advance "suicide squad" that attempted to break the cohesion of the enemy pike unit before the main force came up. Two-handers were also valued for the defense of fortress gateways, breaches in walls, etc. The Knights of Saint John made use of this weapon during their defense of Rhodes in 1522 and Malta in 1565. The use of the two-hander by the Knights was respected and feared by the Ottoman Turks. The final military role of the two-hander was in the defense of the standards (flags) of the army.

Although casually referred to purely as a military weapon, the two-hander was also taught in civilian fencing schools of the time, and was used by city guards on their patrols--it was favored for this because, as fencing master Giacomo di Grassi noted, a man with a two-hander could contend with several opponents armed with single-handed weapons.

I would be curious to know if any of the above roles correspond to the Japanese use of the no-dachi--perhaps Charles knows?

If you have any other questions, I'll do my best to answer them.

Peace,

A_M_P


Benjamin1986
(Enthusiast)
08/17/05 10:34 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Claymore is the accepted term for the large, Scottish two-hander. "Great-sword" really has no real definition, so I avoid the term. Are you meaning a hand-and-a-half broad-sword, or a true two-hander, like a Claymore or Zweihander?

Either way, you had numerous schools of swordsmanship for each of these weapons, but the majority of them were lost as guns got more popular. Professor Piker could give you names and probably a link to some ancient handbook that is still in existence, but I can't.

Edit: I took too long to type this post. Read above


Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/17/05 10:51 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:


well I liked the second too, just because sean connery, and then the third was just to close the deal
the 4th is so stupid it is unbelievable, they mix a television show with a movie franshice




The highlander movie was the most OVER movie of all time. When those credits rolled there was absolutely no way to continue the story in a credible manner. There should have been only one!


lorn
(Newbie)
08/17/05 11:39 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

well here is the thing i like about the 2 handed sword aka greatsword, it was so hugh that it could have been used for sevral purposes on the battlefeild , not vary reliable and all ,but none the less a deadly weapon ,lets just say you had 2 people who are = skilled in swordsmanship ,

person a,,, useing any type of sword you could think of ,

and person b ,useing the greatsword,,,

now i know depending on the situtation , like person be ,can he even swing the sword correctly due to its wait , and all,

throw that all to the side , the greatsword imo would be the better choice , but i wonder if it was possible to use other sword styles that were ment for lets say the katana, or saber , or any of thoses style could be used for a two handed sword ?


Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/17/05 11:44 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Not successfully.

yen
(Member)
08/17/05 11:45 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:


The highlander movie was the most OVER movie of all time. When those credits rolled there was absolutely no way to continue the story in a credible manner. There should have been only one!




I couldn't agree more. As far as I'm concerned, there WAS only one...


lorn
(Newbie)
08/17/05 11:50 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

i geuss if you were to be able to uses diffent styles with the 2 handed sword, you would have to be strong as heck and fast , lol

glad2bhere
(Enthusiast)
08/17/05 12:47 PM
Re: Great Swords (Two-Handers) In the European Context

Dear AMP:

Many thanks--- I stand corrected. From what you wrote it seems that one could have referred to Mel Gibson's out-sized blade as a "claymore" and still been correct. Thanks again.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Benjamin1986
(Enthusiast)
08/17/05 09:45 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:


and person b ,useing the greatsword,,,

now i know depending on the situtation , like person be ,can he even swing the sword correctly due to its wait , and all,



My friend, the largest claymore I have held was an 8 lb Angel (there was an 11 lb nodachi, but that was designed to be the ultimate tamashighiri blade, not a practical weapon, so it doesn't count). The main advantage of the two-hander is it's reach and momentum. Approaching it with a small blade is almost as bad as fighting a sword bare-handed. You litterally cannot get to distance without getting your head cut off. However, this comes at the price of agility. You cannot change directions as quickly as a saber-class weapon, so completely different techniques are required.


Belnick
(Veteran)
08/18/05 01:42 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

Quote:


and person b ,useing the greatsword,,,

now i know depending on the situtation , like person be ,can he even swing the sword correctly due to its wait , and all,



My friend, the largest claymore I have held was an 8 lb Angel (there was an 11 lb nodachi, but that was designed to be the ultimate tamashighiri blade, not a practical weapon, so it doesn't count). The main advantage of the two-hander is it's reach and momentum. Approaching it with a small blade is almost as bad as fighting a sword bare-handed. You litterally cannot get to distance without getting your head cut off. However, this comes at the price of agility. You cannot change directions as quickly as a saber-class weapon, so completely different techniques are required.




like the sword of william wallace then
Length 64 inches(66?)
Weight 8 pounds

but it does look ALOT heavier when you look at it IRL
can tell you this, if I had a sword and I saw a guy ~2m tall like wallace with this sword, I would prolly go fight someone else first


funstick5000
(Enthusiast)
08/18/05 02:17 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

if I had a sword and I saw a guy ~2m tall like wallace with this sword, I would prolly go fight someone else first




leave to the archers lol.


lorn
(Newbie)
08/18/05 02:59 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

yea archers would do the job , but then again this isnt about archers lol.

Belnick
(Veteran)
08/19/05 01:42 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

yea archers would do the job , but then again this isnt about archers lol.




infantry vs infantry or cav, not infantry vs archers, it is not like in braveheart where they sacrifice that many(we have reserves....)

I dont rem ever hearing of infantry storming over a battle feild against archers, but I donno, vikings prolly did :P


funstick5000
(Enthusiast)
08/19/05 08:15 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

Quote:

yea archers would do the job , but then again this isnt about archers lol.




infantry vs infantry or cav, not infantry vs archers, it is not like in braveheart where they sacrifice that many(we have reserves....)

I dont rem ever hearing of infantry storming over a battle feild against archers, but I donno, vikings prolly did :P




i wasn't really serious about it but there must have been some sort of culture where the main weapon was a bow and warrioirs were like legolas from LOTR without the dorky haircut.


Belnick
(Veteran)
08/19/05 08:32 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

yea archers would do the job , but then again this isnt about archers lol.




infantry vs infantry or cav, not infantry vs archers, it is not like in braveheart where they sacrifice that many(we have reserves....)

I dont rem ever hearing of infantry storming over a battle feild against archers, but I donno, vikings prolly did :P




i wasn't really serious about it but there must have been some sort of culture where the main weapon was a bow and warrioirs were like legolas from LOTR without the dorky haircut.




yea I read about some in fantasy books too :P
the samurai used both bow and blade, but think blade more


funstick5000
(Enthusiast)
08/19/05 08:40 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

i think the bow was a distance weapon, like the long bow before the main charge to reeduce numbers.

splice
(Member)
08/19/05 09:09 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:


the samurai used both bow and blade, but think blade more




Then you think wrong. Bows and spears were much more used in warfare by samurai than blades were. Some quotes from Dr. Karl Friday (Professor of Japanese History at the university of Georgia):

Quote:


The underlying conditions and strategic priorities, and thus the central fighting methods, of war remained predominantly the same throughout the early medieval era. 13th and 14th century warriors continued, by and large, to perceive themselves as followers of "the way of horse and bow"; and 13th and 14th century commanders continued, by and large, to look to mounted bushi as their primary weapons. Swords, by contrast, were rarely employed except under circumstances in which warriors could not use their bows.





Quote:


Swordfights took place at similar times, or under other circumstances in which bushi did not have recourse to their bows. One searches in vain for a single battlefield example of warriors voluntarily forsaking bow and arrow to fight one another hand-to-hand. All bushi carried long swords (tachi), as well as shorter, companion blades (katana), and trained at grappling; but they viewed these weapons as supplements to their bows and arrows, never as replacements for them. Kamakura warriors were still, by preference and for good reason, first and foremost bowmen on horseback.





Quote:


Mounted archers remained central to Nambokucho warfare as well. Recent studies by Thomas Conlan, Shakado Mitsuhiro, Suzuki Masaya, Imai Seinosuke and others have persuasively undermined long-cherished presumptions that the 14th century marked the advent of a new age of infantry supremacy. The most compelling evidence on this point comes from analyses of statistics on wounds, compiled from battle reports. Conlan looked at 1302 such documents, cataloging 721 identifiable wounds. Of these, some 73% were caused by arrows, while only 25% were the result of sword strokes, and fewer than 2% involved spears. Suzuki examined 175 such documents, and found that nearly 87% of the 554 identifiable casualties reported therein came from arrows, 8% were caused by swords or naginata, just under 3% were the result of troops having been struck by rocks, and 1% were caused by spears. Shakado's less extensive survey of some 30 battle reports indicates that 82% of the wounds were caused by arrows.





I suggest you google for his writings and inform yourself. Heian, Kamakura, Nambokucho, and even Sengoku, during all these eras the main weapons for warfare in Japan were bows and arrows. Blades were simply sidearms.


Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/19/05 10:39 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:


yea I read about some in fantasy books too :P
the samurai used both bow and blade, but think blade more




There you would be wrong. On the battlefield Samurai would use the bow, usually from horseback, far more often than the sword. After the bow, the next most likely weapon was a spear. Swords were not truly a battlefield weapon. They were more of a sidearm. Like the pistol a modern officer might carry into combat. It's the least likely weapon on the modern battlefield to see use.

[edit]Arg! Splice beat me to it![/edit]


Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/19/05 10:42 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:


i wasn't really serious about it but there must have been some sort of culture where the main weapon was a bow and warrioirs were like legolas from LOTR without the dorky haircut.




Think Genghis Khan. And don't think lightly of it. He put together the largest empire the world has EVER known. An empire built largely on the bow.


funstick5000
(Enthusiast)
08/19/05 03:04 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

you can usually take most of my posts reasonably lightly. i've been ignorant to serious martial arts most of my life so i'm still learning about...well everything. usually if i say something stupid its cos i don't fully understand something...or are drunk.

and also the long bow is the reason i'm not writing (and probably you americans) all our posts in french. this isn't a nationalist thing btw, i'm referring to the battle of hastings of 1066, and i've read (micheal moore - dude wheres my country) that some of the major players in the us constitution were french or had french parents heritage. puts the anti franco riots of 2003 or 2004 into perspective really.


Armed_Man_Piker
(Member)
08/19/05 07:47 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:


and also the long bow is the reason i'm not writing (and probably you americans) all our posts in french. this isn't a nationalist thing btw, i'm referring to the battle of hastings of 1066,




Perhaps you actually mean the Hundred Years War--where the English used the longbow to great effect against the French.


Armed_Man_Piker
(Member)
08/19/05 07:54 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

Quote:


the samurai used both bow and blade, but think blade more




Then you think wrong. Bows and spears were much more used in warfare by samurai than blades were. Some quotes from Dr. Karl Friday (Professor of Japanese History at the university of Georgia):

Quote:


The underlying conditions and strategic priorities, and thus the central fighting methods, of war remained predominantly the same throughout the early medieval era. 13th and 14th century warriors continued, by and large, to perceive themselves as followers of "the way of horse and bow"; and 13th and 14th century commanders continued, by and large, to look to mounted bushi as their primary weapons. Swords, by contrast, were rarely employed except under circumstances in which warriors could not use their bows.





Quote:


Swordfights took place at similar times, or under other circumstances in which bushi did not have recourse to their bows. One searches in vain for a single battlefield example of warriors voluntarily forsaking bow and arrow to fight one another hand-to-hand. All bushi carried long swords (tachi), as well as shorter, companion blades (katana), and trained at grappling; but they viewed these weapons as supplements to their bows and arrows, never as replacements for them. Kamakura warriors were still, by preference and for good reason, first and foremost bowmen on horseback.





Quote:


Mounted archers remained central to Nambokucho warfare as well. Recent studies by Thomas Conlan, Shakado Mitsuhiro, Suzuki Masaya, Imai Seinosuke and others have persuasively undermined long-cherished presumptions that the 14th century marked the advent of a new age of infantry supremacy. The most compelling evidence on this point comes from analyses of statistics on wounds, compiled from battle reports. Conlan looked at 1302 such documents, cataloging 721 identifiable wounds. Of these, some 73% were caused by arrows, while only 25% were the result of sword strokes, and fewer than 2% involved spears. Suzuki examined 175 such documents, and found that nearly 87% of the 554 identifiable casualties reported therein came from arrows, 8% were caused by swords or naginata, just under 3% were the result of troops having been struck by rocks, and 1% were caused by spears. Shakado's less extensive survey of some 30 battle reports indicates that 82% of the wounds were caused by arrows.





I suggest you google for his writings and inform yourself. Heian, Kamakura, Nambokucho, and even Sengoku, during all these eras the main weapons for warfare in Japan were bows and arrows. Blades were simply sidearms.




Very interesting, since it suggests that Donn F. Draeger was wrong (i.e., that Japanese archery fell somewhat out of favor after the two Mongol Invasions in the 13th century).

Also interesting is the report that claims that swords caused more casualties than spears--odd.


glad2bhere
(Enthusiast)
08/19/05 09:17 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

"...Also interesting is the report that claims that swords caused more casualties than spears--odd...."

Dear AMP:

Maybe not "so" odd. In some ways this may be a conflict between historical fact and myth. I seem to remember the same issue coming up when the analysis of the Battle of Touton was published (See: BLOOD RED ROSES). For all of the images of English fighting men and nobles going at each other with swords in the media, excavations at Touton indicate that sword trauma accounted for only a tiny fraction of morbidity. I seem to remember pikes or arrows topping the list. And for the Japanese I am sure the reactionary promotion of Samurai ideology and philosophy following the Restoration and into the 20th century sure didn't help. Some people still think Nitobe's book is the greatest thing since slice bread. Sheesh!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Belnick
(Veteran)
08/20/05 06:31 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

Quote:


yea I read about some in fantasy books too :P
the samurai used both bow and blade, but think blade more




There you would be wrong. On the battlefield Samurai would use the bow, usually from horseback, far more often than the sword. After the bow, the next most likely weapon was a spear. Swords were not truly a battlefield weapon. They were more of a sidearm. Like the pistol a modern officer might carry into combat. It's the least likely weapon on the modern battlefield to see use.

sword, bows and arrows and a spear or several spears? sure they rode horses and not mules
of course they would use the bow first, any imbecile would understand the strategic value in that
and then spear to keep the distance and last when no more arrows and the spear is broken or thrown the blade comes out and slices and dices


[edit]Arg! Splice beat me to it![/edit]




hahahahaha


Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/20/05 03:17 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

sword, bows and arrows and a spear or several spears? sure they rode horses and not mules
of course they would use the bow first, any imbecile would understand the strategic value in that
and then spear to keep the distance and last when no more arrows and the spear is broken or thrown the blade comes out and slices and dices


hahahahaha




If any imbecile would understand, then why did you suggest the the majority of fighting was done with the blade? The katana and tachi were sidearms. Weapons of last resort, only to be used when all other avenues are depleted. Getting in close enough to use a katana is a good way to get killed. Much better to stay just out of reach and pepper the ground troops with arrows, or run them down with a spear. If on the ground, it's still better to use a spear, especially since that's probably what the other guy is using. The idea that a katana was a primary battlefield weapon is romantic no doubt, but incorrect.


Belnick
(Veteran)
08/20/05 04:17 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

donno about the number of armies in japan, but if a few hundred thousand survived the spears and arrows then the blade cut a few

funstick5000
(Enthusiast)
08/20/05 05:30 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

really it applys to pretty much every war since they became popular. you'd have to be an idiot not to play that advantage.

Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/20/05 09:43 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

donno about the number of armies in japan, but if a few hundred thousand survived the spears and arrows then the blade cut a few




I kinda doubt the Japanese fielded an army anywhere near that size, certainly not during the Edo period. Even more doubtful during the Sengoku Jidai. But let's assume they did, which is possible. I'm not much of a student of history. The Japanese would have had great difficulty arming an army that big with katana. The quality of iron ore in Japan was very poor. Only the Samurai class would have even owned one, and they would be quite the minority on a Japanese battlefield with those numbers. The majority would have been ashigaru, peasants pressed into service for the duration of the conflict. The ashigaru would have been armed mostly with spears made of wood or bamboo. There would probably have been a number of folks using slings as well. Some of them might have had wakizashi and tanto of their own.

You really need to do some reading and find some evidence to back up your claims. We aren't just gonna take your word for it. Especially when your posting things that go against the regular understanding.


glad2bhere
(Enthusiast)
08/20/05 10:04 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Dear Charles:

"....Weapons of last resort, only to be used when all other avenues are depleted. Getting in close enough to use a katana is a good way to get killed. Much better to stay just out of reach and pepper the ground troops with arrows, or run them down with a spear. ...."

I know just enough about Japanese culture to incur the wrath of the clerks at the nearest ASAHI bookstore so bear with me for a minute.

If the Japanese sword was, in fact regarded as more of a side arm, is it possible to identify the source of information that has gone around quite a bit about a supposed protocol "common" on Japanese battlefields.

Apparently it was a cultural imperative that an individual would advance upon his counterpart, announce his pedigree and issue a challenge. In response an individual would likewise announce his pedigree and accept the challenge at which time these individuals would engage each other in combat. I have never seen a citation for this but it seems to crop up quite regularly in various posts. If the sword was essentially a side-arm and preference would be for bow or spear I don't see how this protocol figures in. Comments? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Armed_Man_Piker
(Member)
08/21/05 12:41 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:


If the Japanese sword was, in fact regarded as more of a side arm, is it possible to identify the source of information that has gone around quite a bit about a supposed protocol "common" on Japanese battlefields.

Apparently it was a cultural imperative that an individual would advance upon his counterpart, announce his pedigree and issue a challenge. In response an individual would likewise announce his pedigree and accept the challenge at which time these individuals would engage each other in combat. I have never seen a citation for this but it seems to crop up quite regularly in various posts. If the sword was essentially a side-arm and preference would be for bow or spear I don't see how this protocol figures in. Comments? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce




Donn F. Draeger mentions this in Classical Bujutsu.

There have been many cultures where high-ranking soldiers have sought each other out during the course of a battle--some with more "ritual" than others. At the Battle of la Bicocca, the famous landsknecht leader Georg von Fundsberg fought against the Swiss captain of Unterwalden, Arnold Winkelried. Frundsberg slew the halberd-armed Swiss with his pike.

There are other examples...


glad2bhere
(Enthusiast)
08/21/05 03:20 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

"....Donn F. Draeger mentions this in Classical Bujutsu...."

Many thanks, AMP.

But now, does this create a conflict with the original position about the katana as "sidearm"? Draeger seems to suggest that such one-on-one encounters went beyond election to becoming the identified nature of battlefield combat. I am noone to argue with the late Don Draeger, though, I would think that were I to engage a person one-on-one I would do so with my primary weapon rather than to fall to using a "side arm". To my way of thinking this would be the equivalent of two modern snipers foregoing the use of their rifles to fall to knife-fighting. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Armed_Man_Piker
(Member)
08/21/05 09:26 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

"....Donn F. Draeger mentions this in Classical Bujutsu...."

Many thanks, AMP.

But now, does this create a conflict with the original position about the katana as "sidearm"? Draeger seems to suggest that such one-on-one encounters went beyond election to becoming the identified nature of battlefield combat. I am noone to argue with the late Don Draeger, though, I would think that were I to engage a person one-on-one I would do so with my primary weapon rather than to fall to using a "side arm". To my way of thinking this would be the equivalent of two modern snipers foregoing the use of their rifles to fall to knife-fighting. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce




Well, as I recall, Draeger mentioned that bushi would not simply challenge each other, but would actually declare what kenjutsu ryu they were from, and how many of the enemy they had slain in past engagements. Everything he mentioned was geared around the use of swords specifically.

But yeah, I would think that if two high-ranking samurai went at it during a battle, they would be using naginata, nagamaki, no-dachi, yari, nagae-yari, and so on, and would only resort to their katana or tachi if their primary weapon was damaged, lost, or otherwise unusable (e.g., stuck in the body of an opponent, perhaps).

I think we should be careful about the designatins "primary weapon", "secondary weapon", etc. Too often in the course of combat, the secondary may become the primary. This is clearly how the sword works. The samurai with the yari is suddenly forced to draw his katana. The landsknecht with the pike is suddenly forced to draw his katzbalger. The janissary with the tirpan is suddenly forced to draw his kilij. You get the idea.


Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/21/05 10:30 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Thats all nice and good, but it doesn't address the fact that a good portion of the folks on the battlefield would not even posess a katana. I'm not saying they weren't used on the battlefield. They most certainly were, but it was not a weapon of choice. Not on the battlefield. Same with the pistols carried by modern officers. I'm sure they see use, but it's not anyone's idea of the right weapon for the job.

Armed_Man_Piker
(Member)
08/21/05 11:44 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

Thats all nice and good, but it doesn't address the fact that a good portion of the folks on the battlefield would not even posess a katana. I'm not saying they weren't used on the battlefield. They most certainly were, but it was not a weapon of choice. Not on the battlefield. Same with the pistols carried by modern officers. I'm sure they see use, but it's not anyone's idea of the right weapon for the job.




Charles,

A couple of points need to be addressed.

1. Even ashigaru would have been equipped with munition-grade swords. Not high-quality katana, but servicable weapons nonetheless. You had the same situation in Europe, where even rank-and-file landsknechte and other pikemen were equipped with simple short swords (katzbalgers, Schweizerdegen, messers, falchions, etc). Having a short hand weapon (i.e., sword) is essential to the pikeman, and ashigaru who were equipped with nagae-yari were just that--they were pikemen.

2. It's commonly argued that the sword was the "equivalent" to a pistol (i.e., a "sidearm"), but that's not totally accurate. There were Ancient, Medieval, and Renaissance armies that used the sword as a primary tactical weapon. A short list would include:

1. Ancient Iberian caetrati infantry

2. Ancient Roman legionary heavy infantry

3. Renaissance-era Spanish rodeleros (aka espadachins)

4. Renaissance-era Italian rotularii (aka spadacinni)

5. Renaissance-era English targetiers

6. Renaissance and Modern Chinese swordsmen armed with dao & tengpai (rattan shield)

7. Renaissance and Modern Highland Scots

So, the issue is not so cut-and-dried as some would believe.

I also submit that the recent findings by modern Asian scholars regarding casualties among samurai from various weapons need to be looked at carefully. Do the statistics refer to samurai proper, or to all troops on the field? How many battles were examined? I'm personally left with more questions than answers.

Best,

A_M_P


Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/21/05 11:50 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:


A couple of points need to be addressed.

1. Even ashigaru would have been equipped with munition-grade swords.





I'll take your word for this.

Quote:


2. It's commonly argued that the sword was the "equivalent" to a pistol (i.e., a "sidearm"), but that's not totally accurate. There were Ancient, Medieval, and Renaissance armies that used the sword as a primary tactical weapon.




I'd like to remind everyone that I was speaking only of katanas on the Japanese battlefield. My comments should not be applied to any other weapon or culture.

Quote:

I also submit that the recent findings by modern Asian scholars regarding casualties among samurai from various weapons need to be looked at carefully. Do the statistics refer to samurai proper, or to all troops on the field? How many battles were examined? I'm personally left with more questions than answers.





I'd suggest asking over at http://www.e-budo.com or http://www.swordforum.com for clarification. I don't know that Karl Friday posts much anymore, but someone at one of those two sites may know how to get in contact with him. My understanding is that it was a more or less complete survey of the battlefield injuries and dead, both Samurai and Ashigaru. The study being cited was of a particular battle, although I've heard of nothing that would contradict the findings. It seems consistent with the common understanding of the way things worked.


Armed_Man_Piker
(Member)
08/24/05 08:07 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Charles,

Quote:

Quote:


A couple of points need to be addressed.

1. Even ashigaru would have been equipped with munition-grade swords.





I'll take your word for this.




There is a 17th century Japanese military manual, the Zohyo Monogatari (written by Matsudaira Nobuoki), which shows how ashigaru of the 1600s (and, likely, the 1500s as well) were equipped and trained. Ashigaru spearmen, archers, and arquebusiers are all shown armed with katana and wakizashi--presumably of munition quality.



Quote:

Quote:


2. It's commonly argued that the sword was the "equivalent" to a pistol (i.e., a "sidearm"), but that's not totally accurate. There were Ancient, Medieval, and Renaissance armies that used the sword as a primary tactical weapon.




I'd like to remind everyone that I was speaking only of katanas on the Japanese battlefield. My comments should not be applied to any other weapon or culture.









I understand that. I was simply pointing out that there were other fighting men (many contemporary with the samurai) who did use swords as a primary weapon.

In addition, there's at least one Chinese account from the Imjin War of 1592-98, which praises the quality of Japanese swords--it is specifically a reference to the Battle of Pyokje in 1593, where much of the fighting was close quarters HTH.



Quote:

Quote:

I also submit that the recent findings by modern Asian scholars regarding casualties among samurai from various weapons need to be looked at carefully. Do the statistics refer to samurai proper, or to all troops on the field? How many battles were examined? I'm personally left with more questions than answers.





I'd suggest asking over at http://www.e-budo.com or http://www.swordforum.com for clarification. I don't know that Karl Friday posts much anymore, but someone at one of those two sites may know how to get in contact with him. My understanding is that it was a more or less complete survey of the battlefield injuries and dead, both Samurai and Ashigaru. The study being cited was of a particular battle, although I've heard of nothing that would contradict the findings. It seems consistent with the common understanding of the way things worked.






Swords causing more injuries than spears? Sounds strange.

In any case, I'll check over at E-Budo and SFI.

Thanks,

A_M_P


Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/24/05 09:38 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:



Swords causing more injuries than spears? Sounds strange.






Where'd you get that? It's pretty much the opposite of what I've been saying.


Armed_Man_Piker
(Member)
08/24/05 10:38 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

Quote:



Swords causing more injuries than spears? Sounds strange.






Where'd you get that? It's pretty much the opposite of what I've been saying.




I took it from Splice's quoting of Dr. Karl Friday, which can be found on this thread:

"Of these, some 73% were caused by arrows, while only 25% were the result of sword strokes, and fewer than 2% involved spears. Suzuki examined 175 such documents, and found that nearly 87% of the 554 identifiable casualties reported therein came from arrows, 8% were caused by swords or naginata, just under 3% were the result of troops having been struck by rocks, and 1% were caused by spears."


Charles Mahan
(Call me "Mr. Sir")
08/24/05 11:30 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Guess I shoulda read Splice's post in it's entirety. Told you I wasn't much of a history buff. That is certainly interesting. Shows a heavy reliance on projectile weapons for sure. This sounds like a debate for greater minds than mine, or at least better educated on the subject at hand.

funstick5000
(Enthusiast)
08/24/05 02:39 PM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

i don't think anyone has taken into consideration war machines and stuff, and the various explosives the samurai would use and rocks being hurled/trebuches (sp) etc and the oversize crossbows the romans used - the list goes on.

oh and using diesease/poisons by throwing dead bodys into wells and over city walls, and starvation when the wheat feilds are burnt. they will have probably claimed more lives than weapons.

and aren't we all so glad that i mentioned leaving 6 foot oversize claymore weilding scottish/australians to the archers on the feild


SethWoodworth
(Member)
11/25/05 12:21 AM
Re: What styles were used for greatswords?

Quote:

The Highland Scots developed their own style of great sword, that was actually of true two-hander proportions.




Yes, but according to all pictorial evidence they used the German Liechtenauer tradition of longsword.

Also, to be a little anal here hardly anyone to studies medieval swordsmanship calls it a greatsword. To the Germans it was primarily a lange-schwert; longsword. Which is what it is refered to as today.

Incidentally, the Kegan's sword was made basically over night by Dr Jim of www.atar.com (I'm not going to try to spell his last name right now). He also made the Salamanca which is named as a pun of Jim's business, which is called Salamander Army. Just a short bit of trivia...



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