You have stated that you have to organize the statements that I made so that you can deal with them in a less random way.

Yes, but I have actually only quoted what you have said, although I have analysed in terms of formal logic. So lets try this again, I shall put it in more simply terms by direct quotes from your previous post:

Mike Eschenbrenner states his hypothesis is:
'Chinese military personal likely taught Okinawans military arts to defend tribute vessels, and that these arts survive until today'

Mike Eschenbrenner also tells us (quotes from your posts) that:

'I am not sure there really can be any way to trace any Chinese systems to the Okinawan kata practiced today'

and Mike Eschenbrenner (again a quote from your post) also states that:

'I am not sure to what extent the arts that have survived are all that representative of the arts that may have been taught by the Chinese to the Okinawans between the 1400s and the early 1800s'

Here are the points that I am trying to make:
A. Yes I am interested in the burden of proof as you stated that you were going to prove that there was a relationship between Chinese spear arts and Okinawan Karate Kata!

B. Yes I mention variables, as you need them for your hypothesis to be VALID. Otherwise it is not a hypothesis at all!

C. You point out that I have provided a number of questions, each and every one of these is based on one thing and one thing only, your own reasoning, which I see as flawed.

D. If these skirt the major points you have made, and revolve around unimportant issues, why have you even bothered mentioning them.

I did try to provide you with a solution as to how you could make your hypothesis a serious one and which you might be able to actually prove something, but you do not really seem to want to take this on board, I practise some spear in what I do anyway, so my interest in this is actually minimal:

Chinese systems that I mentioned:
The Chinese systems that I have mentioned are not at all unrelated, they
can be found in Okinawan Martial arts and have their root in Chinese military system, Eagles Claw a Chinese Military system influenced White Crane, which is most definitely an influence on Okinawan martial arts.

Why I mentioned them
If I am going to say that I am going to prove that Chinese spear arts were taught to the Okinawans and that these arts in some form survive until this day, then really I need to show what Chinese spear arts look like and then I need to show a correlation.

Ok as regards your 11 points, you ask me whether I take issue with them, Ok points 1-11

Point 1: The Chinese may have had a vested interest in ensuring the tribute trade was successful

Point 2: Is a possibility

Point 3: whilst this is possible it would have been the Okinawans who were most liekly to have sought out the training, but they could have sought it from a variety of sources, the evidence for this is in Okinawan Kobudo, most of the weapons had their origin in South east asian and not necessariuly China.

Point 4: Whilst the spear would have been a weapon of warfare, it was one amongst many, if you are talking about warfare you are talking about battlefields, but you are then somehow drawing links to the shipping trade.

Point 5: We really cannot say that the Chinese taught Okinawan seafarers spear arts, one way or other. There is no evidence that this was or was not so.

Point 6: Point 6 relates to point 5, but if we assume for a moment that such arts were taught in kata form, then you still need to look at Chinese Spear arts to determine this.

Point 7: Yes the Satsuma had a vested interest in ensuring the tribute trade

Point 8: There were some after the Satsuma invasion who are believed to have trained in military arts, examples are Sokon Matsumura and the Jigen Ryu, as Japanese art, as well as the other arts that he studied, we can also same the same of Tode Sakugawa. Both of whom were involved in protecying merchant ships at various points in their lives, at least so the stories tell us.

Points 9 - 10: These are about firearms and have little or no relevance to what you are arguing.

Point 11; You should really look at the articles by Gregory Smits concerning this weapons ban which has been over emphasised and which as it turns out is more fiction than fact.

Now please provide the list of the 40 kata that you are proposing you can show that these spear arts can be found in.

In your response please kindly refrain from:

Asking me to indicate a kata on youtube and you will demonstrate what these are.

Return with another set of questions without answering the original questions that have been posed to you on this forum, most especially as regards the problems with your hypothesis and other issues.


Chris Norman.