I know you're adressing John here, but there's a few things I'd like to say about some of your points.


But they dont, they train to play by the rules, and that training tends to spill into street fighting in many cases where they fail to use tactics that could actually save them

Possibly.Possibly, training for a sportive environment may make someone less likely to use foul tactics. I don't necessarily agree with that, but let's go with it. Your argument falls apart with: "they fail to use tactivs that could actually save them". Who's to say that 'combat sport' tactics wouldn't save someone in a 'real' fight? As a matter of fact, a case could be made for these being the best tactics to use with regards to prosecution after the fight occurs. Anyway, why is knocking someone out with a cross to the jaw any less valid than an eye gouge? When you say "could save them" this opens up so many variables, that I could just as easily say that "that training tends towards co-operative practice, and that training tends to spill over into street fights, where they fail to use tactics (that can only be learned through alive training) that could save them."


About the heresay thing-I did mention old video footage, it's out there buddy boy you can find it on YOUTUBE! So again I say-R-E-A-D.

That's good, and I could show you examples of modern boxers too. What does that prove? Boxing has changed over the last eighty years because there is a price (literally) to play for not staying current, and changing with the times. The sportive environment works like Darwin's theory of survival of the fitest: the techniques and methods that currently exist are there because they beat the old ones.


I am not saying that dirty fighting is better all around or anything but that in many cases it's more practical, at least for some people. A big, strong guy could use a cross just as well as am eye poke, maybe easier as it takes less accuracy, however in the case of say, my 120 lbs. girlfriend who isnt too athletic, a cross might work but a properly used eye poke, and a knee to the groin, would work much better. It deends a lot on the person, and the situations you are likely to find yourself in, as to what tactics would be best. It's nice to have those options in mind though, I'd say.
And I never said anything about training co-operatively. I agree that step sparring and similar practices are useless past your first month maybe of training. You obviously cant go "all out" but you cant do that anyway, no matter what techniques you use you always have to hold back a bit, or change how you do thigns to protect yoru training partners, however you CAN train some dirty tactics un-cooporatively, to some extent anyway, especially with a good set of gear. And even if you cant, it's still valuable as long as you're getting some un-cooporative practice.

In the Marines, through the 80's and 90's, they practiced the LINE system, which was all about dirty fighting and the drills of coruse were pre-arranged and mostly co-operative. They combined it with what they called combat hitting which was basically boxing as far as I know. For people who actually kept up with it past boot it worked great, and I've heard from many guys that it was a better program than what they have today. Most notably because it trained them to react in as violent a way as possible. And plenty of guys used that training in real situations. They said that the LINE program combiend with combat hitting was about perfect for them. It obviously can work.

About the old footage I mentioned, I was using it to show how different boxing was in the old days and then went on to state my opinion that it wasnt necessairly worse in terms of effectiveness of their methods.

In any case, are saying we should just forget the past entirely and all that it can teach?

About Darwinian evolution, you're partially right but evolution is not quite that narrow. New species might beat old ones in one environment, but in another environment the old ones may be better able to survive. I.E under different "rules".

Jkogas-jsut because the short Filipino stance was best for knife fighting doesnt mean it was best for everything. It's just speculation but I doubt many if any of those Filipinos could've bested John L. Sullivan in a bare-knuckle boxing match, or Bob Fitzimmons or any other champions of those days. Their methods obviously worked for them and they continued using them for a reason.
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,