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What I'm going on is some video footage I've seen of the older fighters (Sullivan, Corbett, etc.), as well blow by blow accounts from people, what they said about their training, and so on.





Hearsay about the distant past. Nice.


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About the Mike tyson dirty fighting thing, thats one example, obviously some people will go agaisnt the rule. I can think of other examples of that happening. Still there are far more where it didnt happen.





Uh....it's not supposed to happen...in the RING! I mean, there are rules. Some people just don't care and others are sneakier about it, yet it happens. There is a "dirty" side to boxing that includes low blows, headbutting and other aspects. The entire repertoire of Filipino boxing (Panantukan) is basically referred to as "everything that is legal in boxing and, everything that isn't". Yet the delivery system is still boxing. It's built on boxing and has to be because without fundamentals, all the dirty stuff doesn't mean a thing. "Dirty tactics" without fundamentals, is like having bullets without a gun.

But your point about being unable to think of other examples of where "dirty fighting" didn't happen....WTF?! What are you TALKING about? In the ring or on the street? If you're talking about the ring, it isn't supposed to happen in the ring man! If you're talking about on the street, how many people who have trained in boxing and have gotten into fights have you polled on this matter? That's an absurd point.


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According to what seems to be your idea that dirty fighting is an instinct that people will likely go to under stress, that should happen often in the chaos of fighting, including sport fighting.





Listen man, people are aware of the rules in a competition apparently, or they'd be thrown out. Perhaps these competitors have more stability, poise, and control than you do and the chaos doesn't make them flip out in the way you're assuming one must. It's a straw-man argument you're attempting to make.

Answer the question: how easy is it to bite? How easy is it to stick your finger into someone's eye?


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But it doesnt. What abotu wrestlers who turn their backs in a match with BJJ guys knowing it exposes the neck to chokes? Not exactly the same as dirty tactics but the idea is you do what you've had ingrained in you most.





Another strawman argument. Haven't you ever seen wrestlers who wrestled dirty, headbutting their opponents? I have. In fact, its been said by some of the greatest wrestlers that to be the best, you have to wrestle on the very edge of the rules. So please Stormy, take this fight you can't win somewhere else. Pick your battles wisely. You ARE NOT going to win this one.


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To be most effective you have to adapt at least somewhat to changing situations.





I never said otherwise. YOU are simply saying that it's impossible to do so if you haven't trained specificially for dirty/foul tactics, which is absurd.

Listen Storm (what's your real name bro?), you and I have been over this before. Here you have me doing this before. The problem with you is, you just don't want to concede a debate you can't win. You'll use strawman arguments to try and prove a point and I'm not going to lose energy battling through that garbage as I have in the past.

I will say that you are better prepared if you include foul tactics in your training...but only from a defensive point of view. Offensively, there's nothing to train. Biting isn't an "art", neither is sticking your finger into someone's eye.



-John




Where did I say that other I am unable to think of other examples where dirty fighting didnt happen? I said it does happen, and I CAN think of other examples where it happens, but I can think of more where it does NOT happen. Learn to R-E-A-D. Anyhow, if dirty fighting was as instinctual as you make it out to be, people would react with it under intense stress more often despite rules which is what happens with instincts, you just do it. But they dont, they train to play by the rules, and that training tends to spill into street fighting in many cases where they fail to use tactics that could actually save them.

About the heresay thing-I did mention old video footage, it's out there buddy boy you can find it on YOUTUBE! So again I say-R-E-A-D.

Panantukan (sp?) doesnt look too much like boxing, with all that hand trapping (which as far as I know you cant stand-just like the wing chun kind of trapping) if this is what you mean anyway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLv3uuis60s. They do utilize dirty tactics in training as well, like you said, along with "boxing" (or something like it I guess) doesnt that go against you whole point? Thanks for the counterexample bro.


By the way when I say boxing I mean the American, ring kind. Thats why I mentioned gloves so much before, I mean boxing as applied in the ring with gloves.


Edited by Stormdragon (11/11/08 03:38 PM)
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,