CVV that was good information but even with those details you come up with the same conclusion that we do. And I know thats the point you are making so we are in agreement.

Karate and Tegumi where two separate training, even if Tegumi was formally trained and it seemed it was. It was different from Karate.

Karate training seems to always to have been thought of as serious training and Tegumi was a fun challenging sport. Even if practioners sometimes got hurt or broke something, it was an accident or they didn't tap when they should have.

No one questions if Karate has takedowns, Locks, Throws, breaks or chokes. What is questioned is that it doesn't have sustained groundfighting. One of the formal two men drills that we do both you lock and break the arm in shikodachi while throwing him head 1st to the ground and after he comes out of the roll you strike the eyes. This is different then seeking to mount and lock an arm or take back an choke or counter that. To me it seems far more serious, get it done quickly.

I agree that Okinawans would have used their past training in wrestling if taken down or if they wanted to mount. But it was not past down through Kata.

And seriously Naihanchi/Tekki's ground applications (the ones I've seen) are far inferior to Judo's/BJJs or Submission wrestling's rolling. Whereas its standing application seems to have less flaws. Almost like thats the best place to apply its principles maybe thats just me because I'd changed gears wrestle instead of Karate at that range rather then think my horse stance was a guard???

I'm a non believer what can I say.