You only have so much time, do you plan on trying to master both? You will never outgrapple a good grappler unless you plan on becoming one. Learning simple escapes and such I consider a prt of Karate training.

Not sure if you read my posts some times. Some time back I started working with grapplers.


Well i'd be curious what you've seen, I have a couple books and it's all pretty standard (though very well presented and elucidated upon) standing grappling and a little bit of ground stuff.

He goes a lot deeper than that.You might find the books refer to basic defence and what date is on the book?

Just been looking at a guy he got in for a seminar on tekki. Good stuff except everything goes from typical wrist grabs. Now how does a person get to the wrist grab stage ?

Could using Kakie (which is taken from Chinese Chi Sao) bring a person to this stage? Is this part of the chinese infleunce on karate?
Is there elements of kakie in kata? Shurin or other wise?
If so would all this add up to a fighting art?

It goes nowhere near as in depth as any Jujutsu in terms of grappling, Koryu or otherwise. If you think it's gonna help in a grappling engagement against a trained sport grappler you'd be mistaken, and he even points out in the book that that is not his intention with the information. I know you've made some vague allusions to grappling with Judoka or something but honestly....

Zach, You tend to formalate an opinion based on assumptions.
I think kata has a wealth of techniques. I dont know them yet but meanwhile I will have to do grappling with grapplers.
I stated some time ago I started working with grapplers, etc etc etc.
And how do you realy know to what depth kata goes?
There are hundreds of katas. Have you realy studied every one?

You're certainly not going to beat good grapplers at grappling,

Your getting your wires crossed here.
No I am not under the illusion that just learning kata, be it jujitsu or karate, will make me a good grappler.
I am under the illusion that to learn to grapple train with grapplers.
But thanks for the vote of confidence Zach,


It's this kind of bogged down thinking that I don't understand.

Karate isn't meant to be an art used against trained sport grapplers, it's meant to address typical acts of violence that one may encounter and deal with them expediently, not give you some uber mix n match tactical game with which to match any opponent, the strength of Karate lies in it's simplicity.

As Ian Abernethy and others point out, the older skills are based on quickly ending acts of violence, not some game of counter for counter such as what you find in sport engagement matches.

One is not better or worse they are simply different ways of training with different intent. It is impossible to train for every technique or scenario one may encounter, and honestly alot of the "bunkai" that attempt to do this seem frankly ridiculous to me.

Zach it seems to me you are stuck with an idea and your getting left way, way behind.
I dont believe that for one minute karate is as basic as you say.
You might wish/ hope for that kind of encounter in a self defence scenario.

There again the more I study and read of history the guys like itosi didint know what a lot of applications were for in kata.

Now let me look at the top guys in this country who teach martial arts orientated self defence.

Geoff Thompson, 6 dan karate 1st dan judo. Countless engage ments in the pavement arena. Doorman, security all his life.

Works out with top judoka, jujitsu , grapplers of every description. Includes all postions of fighting on his seminars. Standing, kneeling, ground work?? Fighting full contact? Animal day?

Ian aberneathy, trains judo on a regualr basis with some top judo guys, seminars with some top grapplers and other martial artists. He is also a 5th dan in the same organisation as Geoff Thompson and Peter Constantine?
and would you believe they train to fight from all positions?

I could go on the list is endless.

But lets see now with history, ah wait a minute? Okinawans already had high grappling skills? Didnt they? That they combined with or even intergrated with the then mixed pot of arts that became chinese hand that the Japanese named karate? Did these fighting skills use groundwork? were they good grapplers?
Lets look at okinwanan sumo? Lets see if jujitsu had an infleunce?
Lets look at the reports I found on violance around 1904
reported from a school teacher? Seems if the report was correct a regular thing. Now during these encounters would they have had grappling skills? Who knows best guess more than likely

So basicaly from the jist of what your saying you know everything that is contained in kata? I dont so I have to take an external route eg learn grappling then see what comes out of kata study.
Grappling as well?