That is in an ideal world. But dont you think that sometimes it wouldnt always work that way and could get long and drawn out.? I need to know what most grapplers have. I also need to know how to get out of certain moves. The only way I can get to know is by studying grappling.

You only have so much time, do you plan on trying to master both? You will never outgrapple a good grappler unless you plan on becoming one. Learning simple escapes and such I consider a prt of Karate training.


I havent studied all his works. The stuff that I have seems jujitsu orientated.

Well i'd be curious what you've seen, I have a couple books and it's all pretty standard (though very well presented and elucidated upon) standing grappling and a little bit of ground stuff.

It goes nowhere near as in depth as any Jujutsu in terms of grappling, Koryu or otherwise. If you think it's gonna help in a grappling engagement against a trained sport grappler you'd be mistaken, and he even points out in the book that that is not his intention with the information. I know you've made some vague allusions to grappling with Judoka or something but honestly....


Some chinese methods and I would venture to say some Okinawan methods seem different than western ideas of fighting. But I can only comment on the stuff I have studied. Still to early to make a hard and fast opinion.

Er, ok.


Well seen as I trained primaraly on strikes I had to come to terms with the fact there are some good grapplers out there. So had to change somethings or get left behind.

Still studying.


You're certainly not going to beat good grapplers at grappling, just curious, are you doing some kind of competitive MMA type sparring? you make alot of allusions to this kind of thing and i'm very curious as to the specifics, who exactly are you "testing your skills" against?

It's this kind of bogged down thinking that I don't understand.

Karate isn't meant to be an art used against trained sport grapplers, it's meant to address typical acts of violence that one may encounter and deal with them expediently, not give you some uber mix n match tactical game with which to match any opponent, the strength of Karate lies in it's simplicity.

As Ian Abernethy and others point out, the older skills are based on quickly ending acts of violence, not some game of counter for counter such as what you find in sport engagement matches.

One is not better or worse they are simply different ways of training with different intent. It is impossible to train for every technique or scenario one may encounter, and honestly alot of the "bunkai" that attempt to do this seem frankly ridiculous to me.

Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/06/08 04:42 PM)