Zach, that's the funny thing about logic, not finding something in an incomplete historical record does not prove something false. Now, if it was written there is no ground fighting in karate or kata, then that's one thing. But to state that since you have never seen it nor been taught it nor heard of it mentioned doesn't prove anything except maybe you should dig deeper.

No, the burden of proof is on you guys making the claim, as with anything else we are debating.

No one has said there was no capoeira in Karate kata either, doesn't mean it's there.

As those on the other side have made no real claim, we don't need to "prove" anything, you guys do.

You brought up the groundfighting thing man, and so far the historical record is scant in this department.

I have never seen anywhere a photo or much description (minus the iffy stuff you guys have thrown out there as a body of evidence- slim to say the least) of oldschool Karateka doing something like grappling for position and applying a RNC or some such on the ground, unless they were crosstraining Judo. Doesn't mean they didn't know how, but it does seem to indicate that as faras we know it was at best a paralell practice to Karate, not directly a part of it.

Why would I be convinced? If in the future alot of evidence comes out to shake things up i'll certainly entertain changing my mind, but so far all you have is a few quotes that don't directly address the place of tegumi with Karate training anyway, not enough to build a case on.

Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/28/08 06:18 PM)