I think it's ironic that everything else has been translated into english, but in order to learn about Ninja, I have to be proficient in Japanese....


You could just listen to the grandmasters of the traditions and then there wouldn't be a problem. But I guess it's easier to quote random people on a forum to prove your point, sokeships be damned.

grandmasters are human, humans make mistakes. Am I supposed to believe everything someone says just because they have good credentials? That would be pretty unwise I would think....

You've given me all these "english only forum" pages, btw, so I can't really be blamed for using them in my arguements...since you use them in yours....

I suggest you actually be president before debating politics....that's basically what you are telling me, which is totally bogus.


By the way, I posted the hensojutsu thread because it's a perfect example of my point. Hensojutsu is ninjutsu. There were ninja who specialized specifically in hensojutsu, nothing else. Considering the methods he's used are actual methods of shichihode, I'd say with confidence he's a ninja. Probably he wouldn't like the title, as in modern terms it sounds kind of goofy to most people, thanks to hollywood, but that's just the reality of it.


Find one place where I have ever stated being a modern practicioner of the art means you are a ninja. I have not said anything like that. The grandmasters of the bujinkan and genbukan both state themselves that they are ninja. I did not say practicioners of the arts are all ninja.

So which is it? Does a modern practicioner make him a ninja, like you just stated?

It seems to me you are getting angry because I am not blindly believing what you want me to believe. I have asked for primary evidence several times, you keep directing me to Hatsumi or other people who were never there...

This is the main reason why I don't believe what you say.
I've provided 3 different perspectives on what a primary source is, you've ignored them all and given the Grandmasters and Tanemura as your sources. They are not primary, and they are not infallible, as you seem to think.

And why are these people shaky?
I would advise you to be careful on who you quote, since neither grandmaster, nor Tanemura were actually there, living and breathing with ninja in feudal Japan...

Mr GArthur on my previous post provides a quote from Hatsumi, so I'll fight fire with fire:


For example Hatsumi Sensei says this.

In this regard we do not have tangible evidence like for example the history of Egypt, with all there many papyrus, painted walls, mummies, Roman sources etc. And there of course is much argument even in this field.

The problem then when studying the history of the ninja, is that in essence we are studying something that is almost absent from the historical and material record. There is no archaeology, and good historical sources are scarce.

Sure we have a few manuscripts (Shoninki, Ninpiden etc), and the ninja are recorded in Japanese history, but in many occasions we do not know how accurate these sources are, as they were written by people that were either/or
a) Not from a ninja background.
b) Enemies of the ninja so had a political agenda.

I like this A. because Hatsumi makes references to Rome, like I have done in the past
and B. questions the accuracy of his own sources.

You believe Hatsumi without a thought, Hatsumi himself questions the history of ninja....

Words have multiple meanings, they change over time. I see no reason to spend money and time learning japanese, when there is an easier solution.

I don't have to learn heiroglyphics, Latin, Greek, Italian, Spanish, or French to study those cultures, so why is Japanese so different? Lack of knowledge of these languages does not impede the study of any of these cultures, in any period of history, yet Japanese just happens to be special...

I guess I just don't understand why it is so hard to learn about ninja as opposed to everything else...but since you are the expert, I guess I just have to take your word for it....

In any case, you don't want to debate anymore, for whatever reason. I'm always up for a good debate, and it was fun while it lasted. Sorry to see your patience has worn thin, and your comments have deteriorated from good old debate to sly little attacks. So it's been fun! ¡Adios!
Alea iacta est ~ Gauis Julius Caesar Ne quis nimis ~ Solon Nuts to cancer ~ Sanchin31