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#98213 - 07/15/04 12:37 PM Scenario: What should Joe do?

Scenario: Joe accidentally cuts someone off in trafic and doesn't realize that the other driver followed him into a supermarket parking lot.

Joe gets out of his car, blissfully unaware of his stalker, and heads toward the supermarket when suddenly he hears a threatening voice, "hey a**hole!"

Joe keeps walking, faster now, not sure of what exactly is going on but he wants to get inside the store.

"I'm talking to you bi**" the guy says as he speeds up too.

Joe realizes that he may be attacked from behind so he stops and turns around in a neutral stance. The other guy is still walking towards him, about 20 feet away, and he begins explaining to Joe that he cut him off and was about to have his ass kicked for it, blah, blah, blah.

Joe appologizes but the guy keeps coming at him. Ten feet away, bigger than joe, and angry as hell. But the man has slowed down to a tough guy mosey. His fists are clenched and his jaw is tight. Joe is scared, he doesn't want to run because that would mean turning his back on this attacker. I want to stress that he is genuinely frightened by this man and his apparently out of control behavior.

As the man gets closer Joe warns him, "I said I was sorry, I'll talk to you about it if you want but that's close enough."

The man is only six or seven feet from Joe and he has to think quick but his mind is clouded by adrenaline. "Please sir," he says, "don't come any closer."

The man keeps coming. He's not rushing Joe, but he is coming right at him. Joe puts up one hand and asks the man to stop for the third dice.

As the man reaches Joe's kicking range Joe fires off a hard Muey Thai style kick to the attacker's thigh, stuns him momentarily and fires off two quick strikes to his face. The attacker is still concious, a bit stunned, probably very mad.

What should Joe do next? Should Joe have done this at all?

#98214 - 07/15/04 01:02 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
Telepath Offline

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 176
Loc: miami, Florida
first off since "joe" had no other choice yes he should have.....

since the thai kick did stunn this man and i will call from now on "Ron", it is clear that he can be hurt, just like every else...

if the two strikes to the face probally wouldhave broken this guys nose... when someone's nose breaks it loks bloody but mroe importantly the eyes start to water up and the person can't see.. joe needs to take advantage of this by #1(my choice) execute another thai kick to make the leg buckle then shift his stance to that leg and execute a side kick coming down on the knee to break it... if the attacker doesent permit this to happen smoothly then he must just react to what is heppning but the quickest way to bring someone like that down would be to keep on kicking that same leg.. make it buckle more and more.. pretty soon the pian will be so internse that he cannot hardly stand.. thats when joe goes for the sson as the leg is broken...joe needs to say some "appropriot words" to this man and maybe wiggle that broken leg a bit or step on it to make the words sink in.. after that he must leave quickly and go to another supermarket if he is that determined to get his milk [IMG][/IMG] or drive around a bit then go home.. making sure that he is not being followed anymore...

Basically what i would do

#98215 - 07/15/04 01:36 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Cool scenario...Joe needs to kick and punch harder so instead of being a little stunned he can't get up for a few minutes. Probably if the kick to the leg was done properly that would have been all he needed but I do like the double to the face too. [IMG][/IMG]

#98216 - 07/15/04 01:40 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
0goun Offline

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 130
Loc: Brooklyn, NY, USA
A similar incident happened to me on NYC subway. Eventually, the other passenger got up and cocked his right hand way over his his back shoulder. Meanwhile, I remained calm and placed my hands, palms together, in from of my chin(neutral position). It turns out, he was bluffing. He came close and tried to shove me w/o success. Eventually, a policeman arrived and removed both of us from the train, in order to keep the trains moving; it was during rush hour. The guy moved on. He seemed glad the police came.

Imagined what would have happenned if I had decked him. He was not the threat he projected to everyone else. Although, I was ready to act had he attacked me, I was not willing to strike first. Keep in mind, there were plenty of witnesses who told the cop, the other guy was the aggressor, but he still pull both of us off the train. Justice is not always clear cut.

To be honest with you, I do not think there is a right or wrong answer to these situations. You have to act according to how you perceive the threat, and you must do what is necessary to avoid injury to yourself.

#98217 - 07/15/04 01:48 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Well, it's a tough call and this is just my opinion, but one of the things I think Joe should have done is specifically state that he was not willing to fight. "Please sir, I'm not going to fight with you. I apologize for cutting you off, I just didn't see you." Also, some "fear of being hurt" type language just before the preemptive strike like "Please don't hurt me", while damaging to Joe's ego in the short term, can be a real life saver in the court room. It will also increase the chances that Joe's attacker will be relaxed when the attack happens, increasing Joe's chances for success.


#98218 - 07/15/04 02:43 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

Fighting on the subway. Ahh what fun. I once saw a pickpocket with his hand in a lady's purse. He noticed that I was staring at him, removed his hand and just stood there, deadpan, like it wasn't the first time. I was younger and stupider then, I kept staring at him, you know, I was being a tough guy. All of a sudden he said to me in a loud threatening voice, "you mutha****a, you got a f****** problem?" I got scared, real fast, but kept calm and just shook my head, "no problem," I said. The guy looked me up and down and then nodded. I took that to mean that it was all cool.
When I got off the train at the next stop my girlfriend--she had been standing two feet away from me the whole time--told me that as soon as the pickpocket raised his voice to me a guy who had been sitting down got up and stood behind me. Until the pickpocket nodded, then he turned and stood down. The train was packed so I didn't notice this, nor would it have seemed strange for someone to stand right behind me. Anyway, that could have been a nightmare, I'm glad it turned out the way it did.
Sorry I got off on that story, I really wanted to say that I like the technique of simultaneously putting the "Ron" off guard and illustrating for any possible witnesses that A) you are the one being attacked, B) you have no desire to fight, and C) gave "Ron" every opportunity not to fight.
The reason I stopped after the two punches and left Ron only stunned is that we all have various levels of training and at this time, while I am confident that I could deliver the described attack, I am not confident in my ability to deliver a sudden knockout, nor am I sure what I would do next. Although, running and calling the police comes to mind.

Edited for spelling.

[This message has been edited by neckbreaker (edited 07-15-2004).]

#98219 - 07/15/04 11:41 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

As far as I'm concerned Joe did everything right. He tried to avoid the fight, he tried to calm the aggressor, he apologized for cutting him off, he said STOP.

The guy didn’t stop and we all KNOW that he was going to hit Joe, so Joe used reasonable force to put down the attacker and this is proven with him only stunning the attacker instead of breaking the mans legs or whatever.

I would of kept beating him until either security come (reccommended) or he is on the ground.

Anyone that mad and big and only "stunned" will probably attack you after you have turned your back and walking away because he would of recovered by then. cowards.

#98220 - 07/15/04 11:51 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Three warnings is more than I give anyone but my tolerance runs thin these days. If they invade that personal bubble then its on. Joe did what was right. Id have went further and KO him then made a very hasty retreat home and sent the wife for the milk in the other car. The law is no longer on our side but every human being is obligated to protect themselves because the law wont. Many people die waiting on help from police or EMT's. Why leave it to chance? Even though he could have been bluffing he could have been deadly serious.

#98221 - 07/16/04 05:39 AM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

I live in england.. I duno if its different here. But he aint pressing charges. Its been one month already and have found that he wants to get revenge instead...

what do i do ?

#98222 - 07/16/04 08:09 AM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andy2004:
I live in england.. I duno if its different here. But he aint pressing charges. Its been one month already and have found that he wants to get revenge instead...

what do i do ?

Andy, wrong forum.

#98223 - 07/16/04 09:17 AM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
StormDOA Offline

Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 142
Loc: Lansing, Mich., USA
First of all as far as I know, Joe is actually the guilty party (unbelievable I know). We had a seminar for all our black belts a couple of years ago and according to the lawyer, joe would still have to choose any of the routes of egress, meaning that Joe could still have gotten away. I know this sounds ridiculous, but Joe could have been charged with assault since he struck the first blows and was still able to leave the area.
Now I know a lot of people are thinking, bull crap I gave him three warnings and he still kept coming, i felt my safety was in danger and he kept coming. But unfortunately, at least in Michigan, USA the law does not agree.
So then it comes down to witnesses and who is pressing charges. Stupid but true. In Michigan, we also have a statute called mutual combat where both people are arrested.
I had a similar situation happen to me a few years ago, but I realized these two guys were following me ( I had been driving, done something the driver thought was rude and returned the oh so friendly gesture he had given to me as i passed him).
I thought about it, assessed the situation from what i could see, drove a bit, a few turns to give him ample opportunity to choose another course of action. He did not, so I then decided I needed to go someplace private where i would not be interrupted or seen by anyone else.
I pulled into a large park area we have and into a secluded spot, made sure my car was between us when i got out of the car and approached him. To make alongstory short, i ended up defusing the situation verbally, but kept a safe distance all the time in case it got physical. But even this situation was foolish for me, because what if these two managed to overpower me or had a gun or other weapon. It worked out for me but i was somewhat lucky.
My point being, it is very complicated and can be really dangerous both physically and legally.

As far as the techniques employed once the altercation had started, I agree with you they seemed to work, I might have done something different, but I am a TKD, Wing Chun guy and had a different arsenbal to choose from. But what you did sounded effective.
What I compliment you on is that you withdrew after the initial sequence, which is close to what the law requires if they deemed it self defense (which I do not think they would).
But tactically, you should have made sure he was out of the equation with a follow up technique. But again that takes you further into the realm of liability and assault.

Situations like this are tremendouysly complicated and have a great deal of variance in their outcome.
Most conflicts can be resolved once you let the guy realize how foolish his action is, and that if he is having a bad day it could possibly get much worse.
Legally, you are pretty much screwed though, unless you are really passive and defensive.
Hopefully this idiot will realize in retrospect, that he is only makinga bad situation worse by seeking revenge, hopefully he will. But you never know occasionally we just run into total psychos that do not learn.

#98224 - 07/16/04 09:36 AM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

If you fear some one is going to hit you and you can't get out of your predicament you have the right to protect your self!
all atemps to get in to the super market or croweded aera should be made, call for help, if he can't, keep attacking untill somthing happens
if posible attack his vishion, try to Keep his distence untill help arives

#98225 - 07/16/04 09:39 AM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

IF your going to hit the agresser, hit with intent, make it count as you mite only get 1 chance!

#98226 - 07/16/04 12:25 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

Just to clarify, this did not actually happen to me. I put the scenario together from an encounter where a girl I know accidentally cut someone off and he not only followed her, he got in front of her and spun his car sideways taking up both lanes. The girl was trapped between several cars and a high tree lined median. This nut got out of his car like a raging animal, screaming at the girl, and waving his fists. The girl stupidly rolled down her window and apologized profusely and the guy actually tried to hit her. Luckily she had been rolling up the window and he hit his hand on the glass. The window didn't break but the guy’s hand might have. He then spit on the window and got back in his car. I told her that I would have plowed his ass down when he was getting out of his car because in my mind this maniac would have had a gun.

If I was in Joe's situation I think I would use that combination because it is what I am comfortable with. I train that particular set of moves a lot because it feels really good and I think that would translate well into a real world fight. If the guy was only dazed I guess I'd just have to go to work on the other leg. Or whatever felt appropriate. Honestly though, I think after a hard kick to the leg and two shots to the face running away would be pretty safe.

#98227 - 07/16/04 12:32 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Hit the glass...Ages ago one of my old girl friends got really pissed at me and punched my window like what your talking about. She broke the pasenger window with her fist! Pretty cool for a chick ha!

#98228 - 07/16/04 01:09 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

Women! Can't live with 'em, can't put 'em in an armbar and make them swear to never argue with you again! [IMG][/IMG]

#98229 - 07/16/04 02:03 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
judderman Offline

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
It might depend on how close "Joe" was to the store. It may have been more sensible to continue to walk backwards, fence in place, towards the store. Stores mean people, which usually means security, staff and CCTV, not to mention witnesses.

Once close to the store or inside it, ask very loudly for someone to call the police as the man in front of you has threatened to harm you. Then stand you ground. You have no-where to run, so if he wishes to attack he will have to try to do so in front of all these witnesses.

If the events unfolded as described above, "Joe" should have then run into the store. Waiting for a second attack is not only stupid, but also greatly damages you chances of pleading "self defence".

#98230 - 07/16/04 11:50 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
StillWater Offline

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 101
This is an awesome post. The kind that really belongs in the forum.

Before I throw in my two sense ; ) I'll just admit up front that its real easy to sit here on the internet and say "he should have done this" or "he should have done that" and that my critique is given in just that spirit: an "after the fact" CRITIQUE. That being said, "Joe" could have done many things differently.

First of all, he could have not cut the guy off. Thats a bit much for me to say cause i cut people off all the time, but the point remains that 99.999999% of all violent encounters origintate from self reflection/self importance. Joe is so caught up in his own self reflection/self importance that all he has on his mind is "get there, get there. I'm late. I'm in a hurry. I wanna hurry up. I wanna go faster. I I I, ME ME ME Blah blah blah"
And then of course the other guy was wrapped up in his own self reflection/importance as well, thinking "this asshole he cut me off what a son-of-a-bitch to do that to ME ME ME I I I wont take that, blah blah blah "

All self importance.

Ok, next: Joe could have PAID ATTENTION and joe could have ASSUMED RESPONSIBILITY for his actions.
You say that joe "accidentally" cut this guy off.
So does that mean that joe didnt know where the other car was before changing lanes? Did he not realize that he was cutting someone off? Wasnt he paying attention? Checking his blind spot? His mirrors? If Joe was alert then the word "accidentally" doesnt apply. Because he would have known what he was doing before he did it.
And he would have realized that the guy got pissed off and followed him to the grocery store. But since Joe wasnt paying attention, joe got caught with his pants down.

OOOORRR, is saying "accidentally did it" just an easy way of saying "did it without thinking about and ASSUMING RESPONSIBILITY for the potential consequenses of his actions"?

We've all heard the term "road rage".
Most have us have probably heard about that ONE GUY who got followed home and shot to death because he cut someone off on the interstate. Not saying that theres anything wrong with cutting people off, but if you choose to do it you should know the potential implications. You might cause (and get into) a wreck.
You might get ticketed.
Now, I'm not saying you should let fear stop you from doing what you want to do, but understand what you are doing and take responsibility for it. That means knowing what could come of it and being prepared to deal with it, and to accept the fact that it was YOUR OWN CHOICES which brought it about.

Had Joe done that, he would probably have PAID ATTENTION.

BUT, I'm tired. And I'm going to bed.
More to come if that caught anyone's interest. (So let me know if it caught YOURS)

Whatever you do to me,


[This message has been edited by StillWater (edited 07-16-2004).]

#98231 - 07/17/04 01:53 AM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Stillwater, Excellent, two thumbs up. Something we should all take into consideration more often.

#98232 - 07/23/04 01:29 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

As I noticed the guy following, I might have tried to create some barriers between us (cars, buggies..). I think that he did all he could to do the right thing, and don't know enough details to talk about the next tecchnique he should throw. I think that awareness is key. If he cut someone off, he must realize that the person may not like it. I would have kept track of the car which I cut off, and if it pulled into the same parking lot I would have stayed in my car until I made sure that the guy wasn't coming after me. If the guy still approached me I would be in my car and would have several options: drive away, sit there and let him yell, run him over, fight, or 9mm. At that point at least you have options, even all of which are not the best, they are better than the other.

#98233 - 07/23/04 11:49 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

Self-defense/Street Combat is quite different from a tournament. A few posters have already mentioned this - when you're in America and are in a verbal altercation, the first person who clearly physically strikes, like our pal Joe, is the one who lands in jail. Usually both land in jail like the poster from Michigan said, especially if it ends up in a brawl after that first strike. Unfortunately too many martial artists aren't taught true self-defense which includes a good grasp of the law, behavioral science and people skills along with the physical stuff. Not to be repetitive, but Joe should've been contrite and apologizing in a confident way. Also helps to smile and have your palms up (or any gesture to show your willingness to resolve the matter). The art of self-defense begins with the knowledge of conflict resolution. Usually, people who want to let you know you cut them off only yell at you and don't necessarily have the gumption after that to physically assault you, unless you goad them on that is.

#98234 - 07/24/04 01:32 AM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

It's true that Joe did a lot of things that he shouldn't have done which is what led him to the theoretical situation he is in. But for the sake of argument, let's say that's what Joe did...

First of all, Joe should either keep hitting "Ron" until he is no longer a threat or try and make a break for it. Ron could still attack him with his hands, or he could go for a weapon. As long as Ron is still standing in front of Joe, he is still a threat.

I'll have to disagree with what others have written here. At least in the state of California, Joe is justified in hitting and kicking Ron. Ron pursued Joe from the parking lot into the store, he verbally threatened to kick Joe's ass (which is technically an assault, but not battery until he hits Joe), he was walking at Joe with his fists clenched, and he continued closing the distance even after Joe apologized. Ron had the intent, means, and opportunity to cause harm to Joe. Joe feared he was going to be attacked, so he defended himself. As long as Joe uses reasonable force to stop Ron (no kicking Ron once he goes down, no bashing his head with an object, etc.), he should be ok. Joe may still get arrested initially (after all, Ron will say he got hit first), but he should be able to defend himself in a court of law.

Since it happened in a grocery store, there would probably be witnesses who saw and heard Ron threaten Joe, saw Joe apologize, and saw Ron with his fists clenched continue to approach Joe even after the apology. This will help Joe's case because it's no longer a case of "he said, he said."

So when Joe gets on the stand, he simply says, "Ron followed me from the parking lot into the store, and he threatened to kick my ass. I tried apologizing but he kept coming at me with his fists clenched. Once he got within a few feet of me, I was afraid he was going to attack me so I defended myself."

If Joe did nothing and waited for Ron to attack first, it's certainly clear who made the first move - but what if instead of punching Joe, Ron attacks with a knife? Or he pulls a gun out of his back pocket? Or Ron sucker punches Joe, Joe goes down, and then Ron starts kicking Joe in the head? Here in California from time to time you read or hear about shootings that started with a road rage incident. Joe would be crazy to just let Ron attack him first because he has no idea what kind of attack it will be.

In the end, it was reasonable for Joe to believe Ron was going to carry out his threat in some manner, so Joe was justified in defending himself.

[This message has been edited by raptor_prime (edited 07-25-2004).]

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