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#98223 - 07/16/04 09:17 AM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
StormDOA Offline

Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 142
Loc: Lansing, Mich., USA
First of all as far as I know, Joe is actually the guilty party (unbelievable I know). We had a seminar for all our black belts a couple of years ago and according to the lawyer, joe would still have to choose any of the routes of egress, meaning that Joe could still have gotten away. I know this sounds ridiculous, but Joe could have been charged with assault since he struck the first blows and was still able to leave the area.
Now I know a lot of people are thinking, bull crap I gave him three warnings and he still kept coming, i felt my safety was in danger and he kept coming. But unfortunately, at least in Michigan, USA the law does not agree.
So then it comes down to witnesses and who is pressing charges. Stupid but true. In Michigan, we also have a statute called mutual combat where both people are arrested.
I had a similar situation happen to me a few years ago, but I realized these two guys were following me ( I had been driving, done something the driver thought was rude and returned the oh so friendly gesture he had given to me as i passed him).
I thought about it, assessed the situation from what i could see, drove a bit, a few turns to give him ample opportunity to choose another course of action. He did not, so I then decided I needed to go someplace private where i would not be interrupted or seen by anyone else.
I pulled into a large park area we have and into a secluded spot, made sure my car was between us when i got out of the car and approached him. To make alongstory short, i ended up defusing the situation verbally, but kept a safe distance all the time in case it got physical. But even this situation was foolish for me, because what if these two managed to overpower me or had a gun or other weapon. It worked out for me but i was somewhat lucky.
My point being, it is very complicated and can be really dangerous both physically and legally.

As far as the techniques employed once the altercation had started, I agree with you they seemed to work, I might have done something different, but I am a TKD, Wing Chun guy and had a different arsenbal to choose from. But what you did sounded effective.
What I compliment you on is that you withdrew after the initial sequence, which is close to what the law requires if they deemed it self defense (which I do not think they would).
But tactically, you should have made sure he was out of the equation with a follow up technique. But again that takes you further into the realm of liability and assault.

Situations like this are tremendouysly complicated and have a great deal of variance in their outcome.
Most conflicts can be resolved once you let the guy realize how foolish his action is, and that if he is having a bad day it could possibly get much worse.
Legally, you are pretty much screwed though, unless you are really passive and defensive.
Hopefully this idiot will realize in retrospect, that he is only makinga bad situation worse by seeking revenge, hopefully he will. But you never know occasionally we just run into total psychos that do not learn.

#98224 - 07/16/04 09:36 AM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

If you fear some one is going to hit you and you can't get out of your predicament you have the right to protect your self!
all atemps to get in to the super market or croweded aera should be made, call for help, if he can't, keep attacking untill somthing happens
if posible attack his vishion, try to Keep his distence untill help arives

#98225 - 07/16/04 09:39 AM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

IF your going to hit the agresser, hit with intent, make it count as you mite only get 1 chance!

#98226 - 07/16/04 12:25 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

Just to clarify, this did not actually happen to me. I put the scenario together from an encounter where a girl I know accidentally cut someone off and he not only followed her, he got in front of her and spun his car sideways taking up both lanes. The girl was trapped between several cars and a high tree lined median. This nut got out of his car like a raging animal, screaming at the girl, and waving his fists. The girl stupidly rolled down her window and apologized profusely and the guy actually tried to hit her. Luckily she had been rolling up the window and he hit his hand on the glass. The window didn't break but the guy’s hand might have. He then spit on the window and got back in his car. I told her that I would have plowed his ass down when he was getting out of his car because in my mind this maniac would have had a gun.

If I was in Joe's situation I think I would use that combination because it is what I am comfortable with. I train that particular set of moves a lot because it feels really good and I think that would translate well into a real world fight. If the guy was only dazed I guess I'd just have to go to work on the other leg. Or whatever felt appropriate. Honestly though, I think after a hard kick to the leg and two shots to the face running away would be pretty safe.

#98227 - 07/16/04 12:32 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Hit the glass...Ages ago one of my old girl friends got really pissed at me and punched my window like what your talking about. She broke the pasenger window with her fist! Pretty cool for a chick ha!

#98228 - 07/16/04 01:09 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

Women! Can't live with 'em, can't put 'em in an armbar and make them swear to never argue with you again! [IMG][/IMG]

#98229 - 07/16/04 02:03 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
judderman Offline

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
It might depend on how close "Joe" was to the store. It may have been more sensible to continue to walk backwards, fence in place, towards the store. Stores mean people, which usually means security, staff and CCTV, not to mention witnesses.

Once close to the store or inside it, ask very loudly for someone to call the police as the man in front of you has threatened to harm you. Then stand you ground. You have no-where to run, so if he wishes to attack he will have to try to do so in front of all these witnesses.

If the events unfolded as described above, "Joe" should have then run into the store. Waiting for a second attack is not only stupid, but also greatly damages you chances of pleading "self defence".

#98230 - 07/16/04 11:50 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
StillWater Offline

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 101
This is an awesome post. The kind that really belongs in the forum.

Before I throw in my two sense ; ) I'll just admit up front that its real easy to sit here on the internet and say "he should have done this" or "he should have done that" and that my critique is given in just that spirit: an "after the fact" CRITIQUE. That being said, "Joe" could have done many things differently.

First of all, he could have not cut the guy off. Thats a bit much for me to say cause i cut people off all the time, but the point remains that 99.999999% of all violent encounters origintate from self reflection/self importance. Joe is so caught up in his own self reflection/self importance that all he has on his mind is "get there, get there. I'm late. I'm in a hurry. I wanna hurry up. I wanna go faster. I I I, ME ME ME Blah blah blah"
And then of course the other guy was wrapped up in his own self reflection/importance as well, thinking "this asshole he cut me off what a son-of-a-bitch to do that to ME ME ME I I I wont take that, blah blah blah "

All self importance.

Ok, next: Joe could have PAID ATTENTION and joe could have ASSUMED RESPONSIBILITY for his actions.
You say that joe "accidentally" cut this guy off.
So does that mean that joe didnt know where the other car was before changing lanes? Did he not realize that he was cutting someone off? Wasnt he paying attention? Checking his blind spot? His mirrors? If Joe was alert then the word "accidentally" doesnt apply. Because he would have known what he was doing before he did it.
And he would have realized that the guy got pissed off and followed him to the grocery store. But since Joe wasnt paying attention, joe got caught with his pants down.

OOOORRR, is saying "accidentally did it" just an easy way of saying "did it without thinking about and ASSUMING RESPONSIBILITY for the potential consequenses of his actions"?

We've all heard the term "road rage".
Most have us have probably heard about that ONE GUY who got followed home and shot to death because he cut someone off on the interstate. Not saying that theres anything wrong with cutting people off, but if you choose to do it you should know the potential implications. You might cause (and get into) a wreck.
You might get ticketed.
Now, I'm not saying you should let fear stop you from doing what you want to do, but understand what you are doing and take responsibility for it. That means knowing what could come of it and being prepared to deal with it, and to accept the fact that it was YOUR OWN CHOICES which brought it about.

Had Joe done that, he would probably have PAID ATTENTION.

BUT, I'm tired. And I'm going to bed.
More to come if that caught anyone's interest. (So let me know if it caught YOURS)

Whatever you do to me,


[This message has been edited by StillWater (edited 07-16-2004).]

#98231 - 07/17/04 01:53 AM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Stillwater, Excellent, two thumbs up. Something we should all take into consideration more often.

#98232 - 07/23/04 01:29 PM Re: Scenario: What should Joe do?

As I noticed the guy following, I might have tried to create some barriers between us (cars, buggies..). I think that he did all he could to do the right thing, and don't know enough details to talk about the next tecchnique he should throw. I think that awareness is key. If he cut someone off, he must realize that the person may not like it. I would have kept track of the car which I cut off, and if it pulled into the same parking lot I would have stayed in my car until I made sure that the guy wasn't coming after me. If the guy still approached me I would be in my car and would have several options: drive away, sit there and let him yell, run him over, fight, or 9mm. At that point at least you have options, even all of which are not the best, they are better than the other.

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