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#98152 - 07/10/04 07:55 AM Re: Self Defense Concepts

Raven, if you have interest in a firearms site with a pretty darn knowlagble group, check out TAC, (The Armed Citizen). The address is

I used to frequent that place regularly and while there are a lot of run of the mill shooters, there are also so very informed and educated folks there as well. One gentleman was a firearms instructor who's name if Fred. I never found him to say anything he couldn't substantuate unless he claimed to be simply stating an opinion.

Carrying a firearm for self defense brings an entierly different dimension to self defense. Most states require you to make every effort to avoid any type of violence if you are aware that a letheal weapon is present. You must have a mindset that the gun is the LAST option, not the first.

There are numerous places around the country that have serious firearms training. Thunder Ranch down in Texas is considered by many to be the premier site. I understand that they are about to move up to Oregon.

Another place is Leathal Force Institute and of course there is GunSite. While there are other good places these three are considered the best of the best. But that doesn't mean you can't get good training somewhere else. Just be warend that like martial arts schools, there are good instructors and bad ones. One thing to avoid is an instructor that claims his way is the only way.

In traditional martial arts, there tends to be only one way, but in the serious world of armed self defense, you use what works for you. Always cheat, always win!

#98153 - 07/10/04 02:42 PM Re: Self Defense Concepts
judderman Offline

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
The arguement for carrying a firearm for defence will rage for years. I whole heartedly agree that to do so does carry some exceptional responsibilites and nor should it be percieved as the first and only line available. Statistics always need to be balanced. I would need to see what the definition of "violent crime" for the study would be. It would also be interesting to compare these statistics agains the number of accidental deaths and suicides involving firearms.

I'll leave that bit there, for fear of perpetuating another firearms debate...

The other thing that you have mentioned Two is the the duration of your defence classes. I would also agree that to a complete novice an 8hr "workshop" may not be entirely suitable. For the MA it might be a consideration.

How long would you consider to be suitable for a self defence "course"? What would you expect to cover during this time?

#98154 - 07/10/04 06:49 PM Re: Self Defense Concepts

Idealy I'd like to create an academy where you have to demonstrate proficency in various areas and under a wide gambit of scenarios. I don't really care if you learn to pass the test in two sessions or in ten. The standard would be high but would use a PASS/FAIL system. Most emphasis would be on de-escilation of potentialy violent situations, but then the H2H stuff would start with escapes, then go to grappling to include submission holds, (this will take some qualifying as I have defined success as escaping without serious injury)and then would progress into teaching a limited variety of strikes. Maybe six hand strikes and four or five kicks. There would be variations of course.

The reason for limiting the number of striking techniques is because it has been demonstrated on numerous occasions that the more possible selections a person has under stress the more likely they are to hesitate and get that deer in the headlight look to them. In self defense, he who hesitates is truly lost!

This is another reason why I like the concept approach. It's like teaching a kid math, you can try to simply teach them to memorize the steps, or you teach them the concept. When the formula changes, that changes the steps and they no longer work. A whole new learning process of memorizing steps must occuer. But a student who understands the concept, will most likely understand what step needs to be done next without going through an entire learning curve. This applies nicely to most people and self defense. It doesn't mean that you don't work on techniques however.

Okay so you have asked me what time it is and I'm trying to tell you how to make a watch. And in truth I still haven't really answered the question. It guess it would be different for different people. I look at self defense from the prospective of being the preptual student. There is no end, the learning simply continues. The more I have learned about martial arts and modern self defense and shooting, the more I have come to realize how much I DON'T know. There is no end, it is an ongoing process. So from my viewpoint I can't really say a set time frame.

My classes were usually attended by 12 to 20 women ranging in age from the late twenties to thier mid fifties. So thier abilities were pretty diverse and none of them had any prior training. Teaching females tend to require a little different approach. They have different concerns and worries that men may know intellectually but don't really understand. You have to address these fears without coming across as belittling thier concerns.

I can go on,( and on and on and on), but I believe that I'll stop right here. I'll just say that the next phase of my ideal academy would be edged, blunt, and chemical weapons and then you'd go on to firearms. Oddly enough, firearms are for the 1% of altercations but would require some of them most intense training.

If you are still interested in my rambling, I'll fill in more details.

[This message has been edited by TwoGun (edited 07-10-2004).]

#98155 - 07/10/04 10:25 PM Re: Self Defense Concepts

Opps! One last thing. Judderman you mentioned that you'd like the info on what consitutes violent crime in the study. Here you go:

"RTC states have lower violent crime rates, on average: 24% lower total violent crime, 22% lower murder, 37% lower robbery, and 20% lower aggravated assualt".

These figures are from the 2002 Justice Department Uniform Crime Report. Also of interest is the work of John Lott and David Mustard of the University of Chicago.

"allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states which did not have Right to Carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders; 4,177 rapes; and over 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided yearly....The estimated annual gain from allowing concealed handguns is at least $6.214 billion...."

The best minds that Handgun Control Incorporated could hire have not been able to dispute these findings and they have been duplicated by numerous researches at various universities.

Hope it's not too much information.

#98156 - 07/11/04 05:15 PM Re: Self Defense Concepts

The elements of Awareness and Avoidance are frequently absent from most Martial Arts curriculums. I have found several reasons for this.

1. The Instructor is intellectually lazy. He or she doesn't want the responsibility of continuing their research past what their instructors spoon fed to them.

2. The Instructor assumes that the student already knows that stuff and will be both bored and distracted if valuable "rep" time is wasted on a discussion of such information.

3. The Instructor is ignorant or misinformed about said information and thus unqualified to teach it.

I find a lot of MA instructors fit #3.

#98157 - 07/12/04 01:18 PM Re: Self Defense Concepts

Probably true. But then again, there is a difference between self defense or personal security, and martial arts training. While I'm a practicing martial artist, I cover a great deal of issues that simply are not martial arts oriented. A simple example choosing a parking spot and trying not to walk alone to and from your vehicle at night. Important to personal security but not really a martial arts subject.

This is just one reason to differentiate between martial arts training of any type and self defense training. The two are not mutually exclusive by any means but to think you are getting everything you need for self defense by enrolling into a martial arts school is a mistake.

In my experince however, many personal security concepts are shunned by ego driven martial artist who feel that they are so tough and bad they don't need to adhere to common sense.

#98158 - 07/12/04 03:38 PM Re: Self Defense Concepts

many personal security concepts are shunned by ego driven martial artist who feel that they are so tough and bad they don't need to adhere to common sense

I agree.

but to think you are getting everything you need for self defense by enrolling into a martial arts school is a mistake.

So true. I teach a BJJ class that consists mostly of Gi and No Gi sport grappling but I also teach a self defense curriculum that includes strategies for Awareness, Diffusion/ Deescalation, Weapons and Legal Consequences. On top of that I teach DT to LEO/CO.

I run into people all the time on the internet that assume because they have a Martial Arts background that they are qualified to comprehensively teach Self Defense or Police Tactics. It's a difficult pill to swallow that they might not be.

#98159 - 07/12/04 09:51 PM Re: Self Defense Concepts

You are so right. I've got a friend I've know since high school and martial arts are where we started our friendship. We both agree that when we were much younger we probably fell into that class but as we grew a little more worldy (and went to a war)our viewpoint has changed dramaticly.

Unfortunatly far too many folks lack your perspective. I'm working out at a TKD club right now as there is little choice in the very small town I live in. Also my two daughters, ages 17 and 14 are training as well and for the most part I feel they simply lack the life experince to teach too much too just yet. So the "sport" aspect is okay for the moment but I make sure that they are learning avoidence and awareness. Both my girls have some skill and have qualified to go to the national tournament in Atlanta this year. But my oldest already understands that what she is doing is playing a game. Lately she has been asking more and more to learn "street" techniques. As she will be going off to collage soon I'll be working with her on that over the next year or so.

She is already an acompliched marksman with pistol and rifle. In fact, at a long range match last year she beat all but one of the police and DCI snipers. (I had to give them a little grief about that!)

Still her skills don't really qualify her for defense with a firearm. That is another area she wants to have proficency in.

I guess my point is a club or shcool that emphasis scoring points doesn't automaticlally meant that it's students can't learn some decent self defense along with it.

Can I ask what area of the country you life in Fletch?

#98160 - 07/13/04 01:29 AM Re: Self Defense Concepts

I am in South Florida.

#98161 - 07/13/04 07:44 AM Re: Self Defense Concepts

A long ways from me. I'm in South Dakota! Not exactly a hot bed for this subject as the crime rate in this state is exceedeling low.

But I'm originally from Dallas and there it was an entirely different thing. But here last year we had only 7 homicides for the entire year and I believe that 4 of those were domestic in nature. I know many people here who don't even take thier car keys out of thier ignition, let alone lock thier car. (I feel like I'm in the Twilite Zone)

But due to the limited shopping and such a lot of people travel here and many become apprehensive when going to "the big city" so I get request for my self defense classes once or twice a year.

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