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#97568 - 05/07/05 05:15 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front [Re: Ed Glasheen]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Ed, after reading thru the entire thread, I have to say that I agree with your assesment. Muggers tend to shoot you anyway these days. No victim to identify them and testify in court. How can we agree so much on CQC, weapons, and this subject, yet be so far apart on MA Form? Another of lifes mysteries....
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#97569 - 05/07/05 06:21 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front [Re: RangerG]
Ace Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 101
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
My MA incoperates many techniques taught to military personal by my instructor both here in Aus and overseas, so i hope i can add a small amount of insight.
1. it is entirely possible to grab a gun off someone... because it is the last thing they will think you will do.
2. it is also entirely possible that the gun will discharge, either while pointed at you or in your control, so always comply with gunholder, only trying to disarm him when all else has failed and you believe he will shoot (general rule is though, if he hasnt shot yet, he probably wont)
3. the first thing you want to do is get out of the line of fire of the gun, either by you or the gun moving.
4. try to grab the top of the gun (if it is semi automatic) as this may stop the hammers ability to strike the bullet (a general safety feature incoperated in most guns)
5.never let go of the gun. ever.
6.try and soften up the opponent by either striking his face or gun arm, to help release or soften his grip, then peel gun out of his hand (making sure at all times the gun is never pointed at you.
7. push him away and train firearm on him, moving to medium/long range to dissuad retaliation.
8. altough i know people hate this mantra, remeber it is better to be judged by tweleve than carried by six, and he has treatened your life, not the other way round, so your survival is paramount, do all in your power to survive.

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#97570 - 05/07/05 06:29 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front [Re: Ace]
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Just remember if you strike while only holding the attackers gun hand the gun will center back on you. Physics. You must control the body as well.
Ed
_________________________
www.bushidomagazine.com

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#97571 - 05/07/05 11:39 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front [Re: Ed Glasheen]
Nevermiss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/31/04
Posts: 14
.3 seconds is too fast to be a human reaction time Ed? I just looked on a drag racing site, let me quote them: "Average human reaction time from eyes to fingers is 0.16 seconds". Here's a link http://www.exo.net/~pauld/books/car_science/reactiontimer.html In drag racing the "Christmas Tree" aka the big bundle of lights that tell you to go are based on human reaction time, here's a quote from a drag racing site: "I have determined that human reaction time is roughly .21 seconds, plus or minus several hundredths for individual differences, human inconsistency, and the type of light source" and the link http://competitionplus.com/2005_02_03/reaction_times.html

You can test your own idividual reaction time by following the formula on the first site: Note: Those were two different reaction times, one was finger reaction time (which is .16) and the other from light stimuli to foot. And as for speed shooters let me give you one more link and quote: The world record fast draw time, meaning a gun which doesn't have a hand on it, drawn, aimed, and fired one shot (you must hit the target as well) is .219 seconds in the Men's Open Division. The fastest traditional time, meaning using old western style guns and holsters is .252 seconds to draw, aim, and fire one shot. As I said, if somebody has a gun drawn on you, you're screwed. If a man is decently practiced on drawing his weapon, you're screwed. Walk softly and carry a big gun guys and gals. If you can draw, aim, and fire a shot faster than the next guy you win. Why do you think police officers practice speed firing drills? And Ed, I never miss, good day everybody.

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#97572 - 05/07/05 12:06 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front [Re: Nevermiss]
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
While your research is of value for drag racing...it is not valid for CQC. First, all those experiment were done with the "actor" knowing the outcome of the event. Light turns green go. Last time I looked there are no christmas trees on attackers.Drawing a gun fast is great, but that is with highly trained competitors in a low threat enviroment. Again the outcome was scripted.
In high threat enviroments all humans set freeze. It takes alot of experience not to be able to do this. Do not confuse attacking with set freezing. The attacker is already in motion. The victim who is confronted, in high threat will set freeze. Reverse the roles, and the attacker who is following his game plan....now is attacked...he will set freeze. Alos his aim will be quite eratic.
If you want to quote research at least get your topics correct. High threat CQC is not comparable to drag racing.
Ed
_________________________
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#97573 - 05/07/05 10:24 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front [Re: Ed Glasheen]
Conad Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/07/05
Posts: 11
I have read this thread, and understand alot of the fears and misconceptions about disarming someone with a handgun.

First thing no one mentioned that I saw was, the bigger the gun, the easier it is to take. Taking a 1911 is alot easier than taking a p32.

I have recieved training from several SF instructors in the art of disarmament.

Action beats reaction. Always.

First "key" is waiting for the gunmans "ki" to shift or drop. This further lengthens reaction time of the gunman.

If you are confident you are in range, gunmans ki drops, time to do it by the numbers.

1. Clear the line of attack.

This can be done by gravity (dropping to a knee if gun is in your face), closing the distance to the gunman while getting out from in front of the gun, or sidestep if you are already nose to nose. Either way, no turning back now, don't stop till it's over.

2. Control the weapon.

grasp the gun, not the wrists, not the hands, the gun. Control the gun. Nothing else matters at this point. Expect the gun to discharge.

3. Counterattack. Depends on you position, for every disarm move there is a kick to put you into position for step 4.

4. Take the weapon. Dont get fancy, either a simple Horizontal or Vertical break.

5. Neutralize the suspect. Depending on your firearm knowledge / skill this will vary. The way I practiced this was to always pull the bad guys trigger. If it goes bang great, if not, draw your own gun, and pull the trigger till the fights over and the threats stop. Remember to check your 6.

We trained with real guns. There is no substitute for the real thing. No ammo should be in the building. 3 people clear each gun 3 times. Some people are not comfortable with this.

We also trained in retention. It is highly improbable that a ganster is going to be in a retention postion, as they usually appear weak. If you are dealing with a professional that is in a CQC retention stance, chances are he is one of the good guys and will not be asking for your wallet. If he does give it to him.

Larry Jordan was one of the instructors, and although he doesn't address these techniques in his book, it worth getting just for the chapter on mindset.


Dirty Dozen by Larry Jordan

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#97574 - 05/08/05 09:19 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front [Re: Conad]
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
You have it partialy correct.

Clear and control the line of fire.

Control the body not the gun. To counter your technique all I have to do is fall or pull. The gun will center on you.

There are many ways to "neutralize" your subject. Shooting him with his own gun is only one.

If you counter attack by striking before you control the subject...again the gun will center on you.

Assuming that someone is a good guy by his stance and or training well you know what assume means.

Ass out of you and me.

Ed
_________________________
www.bushidomagazine.com

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#97575 - 05/08/05 02:44 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front [Re: Ed Glasheen]
Conad Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/07/05
Posts: 11
Quote:

You have it partialy correct.


Control the body not the gun. To counter your technique all I have to do is fall or pull. The gun will center on you.







Ed, once I control the gun, you cannot get it to "center on me", because the gun is mine. I have done these techiniques full speed with some absolutely incredibly experienced training partners. You cannot react fast enough to stop the disarm.

If you are willing to travel I will see if I can get you seat in one of our CQC classes. I will even get one of the instructors do the 70 mph disarm on you, and maybe a live ammo demo.

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#97576 - 05/08/05 05:24 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front [Re: Conad]
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
yeah ok, I'll stick with my military cqc training. Thanks anyway. Ed
_________________________
www.bushidomagazine.com

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#97577 - 05/08/05 05:49 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front [Re: Conad]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:



Ed, once I control the gun, you cannot get it to "center on me", because the gun is mine. I have done these techiniques full speed with some absolutely incredibly experienced training partners. You cannot react fast enough to stop the disarm.

If you are willing to travel I will see if I can get you seat in one of our CQC classes. I will even get one of the instructors do the 70 mph disarm on you, and maybe a live ammo demo.




Two things:

#1. Demos are just that. What an instructor who has rehearsed a bazillion times can do in a demo, does not indicate a. what he can do realtime and b. what he can reliably teach to the average person. This should be obvious.

#2. Live ammo demos? This is the height of ego driven insanity.

Before this turns into a "but my instructor can...." argument, stop. There are several people on this board who have been there and done that.

Thanks.


Edited by Fletch1 (05/08/05 05:51 PM)
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