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#97528 - 05/22/04 07:45 PM Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Most disarms are taught by grabbing the gun hand. This is a very dangerous technique. First it requires fine motor skills that you will not have under high threat. Second it does not control the field of fire and is easily counter by pulling back which will center the gun on your body.

A better technique is demonstrated in the move of the month. www.lonewolfjujutsu.com
Thanks Ed

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#97529 - 05/23/04 03:24 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
I know nothing about guns (most people in the UK don't) so this question is genuine not sarcastic.

Is it really possible for the defendant to be able to move quicker than the guy with the gun can fire?

The whole idea terrifies me.

Have you tried it with something like a paintball gun?
Sharon

[This message has been edited by still wadowoman (edited 05-23-2004).]

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#97530 - 05/23/04 04:47 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Ed,

Do you agree this is mainly for military and law enforcement personnel?

I think it is advantageous to learn this, but the number and type of people, as well as the amount who learn this properly as opposed to improperly would dictate most civilians would be better off just giving the person what they wanted, or finding the first opportunity to flee or fight back.

Anyway, if you want to kill someone, you can shoot them without them knowing.

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#97531 - 05/23/04 09:28 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by still wadowoman:
I know nothing about guns (most people in the UK don't) so this question is genuine not sarcastic.

Is it really possible for the defendant to be able to move quicker than the guy with the gun can fire?
[/QUOTE]


Absolutely not. It takes a fraction of an inch to squeeze a trigger. Who has reflexes fast enough to realistically defeat a guy with a gun? It would take someone like SPIDERMAN to do this. Imagine a 50 year old person (or older) attempting something like this?! It wouldn't work!

Not to say that it couldn't be done, only that it would be VERY low percentage. I advocate staying out of harms way over learning GUN disarms. Spend your training time wisely folks.


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-23-2004).]

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#97532 - 05/23/04 10:40 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
My friend was at an ATM. He was held up. He complied with the mugger. After the mugger recieved the money he pulled the trigger. Lucky for my friend the gun misfired.
The world has changed and so has the rules. You can not read the minds of your attackers. So you better learn how to deal with real situations.
The armbar presented is very effective but it is also the begining.The mugger can not read your mind. He is relying on fear to motivate you to obey his commands.That is why you can beat the gun. He can not react to what he has no idea is going to happen. If you attack aggresively, he will be caught off guard and pause.
Please do not have the victims mindset of obeying the attacker anymore. 911 prove that was a mistake. Instead of enduring an hostage ordeal the hostages were killed. Simply because no one fought back.
As martial artist we have to keep current in our techniques and learn how to deal with modern weapons and tactics. So instead of learning the sword..learn everything you can on disarming somone with a weapon. You may have to fight for your life someday...because if you do not you may find you head being cut off. Ed

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#97533 - 05/23/04 12:48 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
I think the point really should be if you truely believe that you are going to be shot then, and only then, would I try anything like this. Another point to note is that the firearm must be at very close range, if not touching, in order to have any sort of chance.

We are taught a similar version at work, although ours commences with our hands up, but the the principle is much the same, although we favour direct assault rather than conveluted restraints.

I have to admit that I have never used this technique for real although I have trained it alive. I got shot nearly every time, to varying degrees.

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#97534 - 05/23/04 12:55 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]

Is it really possible for the defendant to be able to move quicker than the guy with the gun can fire?

The whole idea terrifies me.

Have you tried it with something like a paintball gun?
Sharon

[/QUOTE]

Yes it is possible but still very dangerous.

Yes the bullet is faster than any technique we have BUT...if your assailant is with in striking range and he does not pull the trigger the moment he pulls the gun (both conditions must be met) then you have a 1.5 second window of opportunity to do what ever it was you were trained to do but most probably no second chances.

Where does the 1.5 seconds come from? Once a gunman does not pull on the onset (no defense for that except prior knowledge)he puts himself in a point where he needs to observe you while observing if you are complying properly.

First of all don't be a threat. (Don't look like one) ifhe is relaxed then his guard is done. Get within striking range. Your chances of survival decreases as your distance from the gun incrases. at 20 ft shooting requires little/no aiming and no technique can touch him in less than 1.5 seconds.

"Give me your money!" he'd be thinking of getting the money, making a getaway, and praying that he doesn't get caught.

"Don't move or i'll shoot." but the moment you move it takes time for him to assess whether your move is threatening and if it is tell his hand to pull the trigger. Even dropping a hot potato (a thoughtless action) takes a split second to accomplish.

Try it have someone point a toy pellet gun at you. Tell him to pull the trigger when he sees an attack coming his way. Chances are you'd get an attack in before he pulls the trigger.

Now that you know that what ever technique you use make sure that you're done with the defense in 1.5 seconds (the first slap, grab or whatever takes no more than .2 seconds).

Terrifying of course it is. I'm not saying you can disarm everybody just that it's doable, very dangerous but doable.

Personally when the opportunity is there i'd go for the disarm rather than be shot helpless, but that's just me.



[This message has been edited by Shuyun (edited 05-23-2004).]

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#97535 - 05/23/04 01:35 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
Their ability to pull the trigger in response to your movement/attempt to disarm them relies on the same thing as evading a punch-response time.
They have to see your movement,brain has to interpret it-formulate response, then physical reaction.

As pointed out by Jkogas, any attempt to disarm a gun wielding opponent is probably a low percentage tactic. I would only attempt it if I knew they were going to shoot-in that case you have very little to lose and everything to gain. Basicly it would be a desperation move.

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#97536 - 05/24/04 02:39 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
exceptionist 2 Offline
one arm napalm punch

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 438
Loc: Kanagawa Tokyo, Japan
When taking on the frontal handgun disarm;facing, or not facing for that matter, I use the three rules of weapon survival

1.Get out of line of fire.
2.Take control of weapon wielding limb.
3.Disarm at all cost.

Now, I know that was kind of vague, but you need simplicity in a situation like this. Also most cases taggers already have the weapon drawn in your direction; so you can eliminate the time it takes to draw. Also they usually are very high strung(drugs, nervousness, paranoa, urgency) they look around often. I believe that the best time to strike is right when he yells "Get the fu*k on the ground, and take yo M#4hf&*ing wallet out! Given you disquise your motives with a tearfull plea for your life and uncontrollable shaking, and urinating on yourself...but you then do those three steps above; 1. and 2. simultaneously, then commit to step 3. all in under a second. I can say now after a car mugging in ATL back in 98' that it's easier to say that I would actually try to go for the gat...but then again that was 98' and I was in a car, but you can't defend yourself in a car quick enough...and I was on the passenger side. Ahem...yes the question, um lean left "considering you are right handed" side step with it while bringing your right hand upwards to back of palm of firing hand while reaching under the elbow;pulling the elbow towards you; while twisting the barrel of the weapon towards his face, to finish with pushing the barrel into his chest cavity since he'll probably struggle "but he can't resist effectively from this low of a arm trap, don't forget to throw the right leg into the groin area, or any trip that leaves you in a mobile position. If you are lucky he'll shoot himself in the chest. Also watch for the weapon itself " safety still on, replica, water gun" it does happen. Of course you would have to know a little about guns, I'll tell you now; that I would more than likely challenge a tagger wielding a .380 or 22 than Desert E. or 44 mag. or 50 cal. To conclude: pick your battles...but sometimes your battles pick you, and you must be ready.

the exception

[This message has been edited by exceptionist 2 (edited 05-24-2004).]

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#97537 - 05/24/04 10:08 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
I really liked what Shuyum had to say. My freinds and I. Avid Martial artists. Use a pellet gun, unloaded of course. You would be surprised how easy it is to beat the trigger time. It is however no perfect science. Shuyum got just about all the info in there. Remember lasering though. (lasering: pretend the gun has a laser on it that burns anything it crosses.) Now keep this lasering in mind always when practicing your techniques. There is no point wrestling for a gun pointed randomnly at other people or yourself. These techniques are only good for point blank range. But shooting isnt an easy task. Especially when the fine moter skills are inhibited by adrenalline. If one wants to be an all around fighter and not just a martial artist I suggest regular paintball, once a week minimum. Or maybe you should just carry a dummy wallet for such an occasion. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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