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#97548 - 05/25/04 05:08 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
[QUOTE]
Ed asked:

How do you disarm someone with the gun CQC tight to his body?
[/QUOTE]

As far as I am concerned, you don't. You get shot. I sometimes have luck jamming the weapon against the shooter's body and working from there, but a good tactician is going to give you trouble with his off hand, either zone away from you or snatch you in close, and start dumping rounds into your abdomen. I have seen people try to work the off side arm to begin with-- this is a really bad idea, in my opinion. I'd be interested in hearing (or better yet, seeing some more photos) about your approach to dealing with a gun in "retention position". (By the way, constructive criticism coming: It would be helpful if your photos showed the whole body-- footwork is one of the most important parts of making this stuff work, IMHO.)

Kman,

If you don't mind sharing, I'd be interested in a description of what a "typical" street trained gun grab looks like. My other hobby is handgun retention. Speaking of retention, do you find the street types are thinking about retention, or do they tend to stick the gun out like one would hope. It stands to reason that if they are practicing disarms they would be practicing retention, too-- but I hope not!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#97549 - 05/25/04 07:21 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
It is hard to discribe every detail in photos at least it is for me. But since I am a novice at photo taking, I will try to tell the story as best as I can.
Yes trying to disarm someone who knows what they are doing is very difficult. But hey you don't have a choice. We train worst case situation. From what I have experience I do not think your average run of a mill hold up artist is well versed in gun retention and CQC tactics. But I do think that there is now more of a tendency to shoot victims then before. You are more likely to get shot in a hold up. From what I have be told, by family members who work in corrections, yes they do train is knife and disarms while in prison. I have even seen CCTV footage. So maybe the trend is changing. All the more reason to train properly. But more often than not you are going to get a gun in your face and the guy is going to pull the trigger. It is also going to be at very close range. Less than 5 feet.
Now to answer how to deal with the gun held tight. Yes you will go in and jam the gun against the body. There are ways of doing this with out getting punched in the face. I agree it is risky. Remember, you have the advantage by attacking. Gun fights are not as accurate as you would think.
I too am very interested in disarm and retention techniques. I have learn a lot from the military. But I think the average street thugs retention technique is the most basic, to punch you in the face. Ed

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#97550 - 05/25/04 11:04 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
CQC - Close quarters combat.

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#97551 - 05/28/04 07:57 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
PETER Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 239
I personally believe I can beat the gun, the problem is I can't beat the bullet. I agree with all who say if you can get by with turning over some property, then do it. If you think they are going to shoot then do something. If the gun is very close to you, it's possible to beat the gun. if the gun is out of reach, beating the bullet is almost impossible. It may sound stupid but I think the best bet at 3 or more feet is to dive or zig zag away and try to take cover or get away. If you are going to die anything is worth a try.


Peter

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#97552 - 06/09/04 05:58 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
Shadowfax Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Mason City, IA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

Absolutely not. It takes a fraction of an inch to squeeze a trigger. Who has reflexes fast enough to realistically defeat a guy with a gun? It would take someone like SPIDERMAN to do this.
[/QUOTE]

I respectfully disagree. While you are correct in the spacing (a fraction of an inch to squeeze the trigger) you did not take into account the reaction time of the gunman. If he's pointing a gun at me and telling me to get my wallet out, of course I'm gonna get my wallet out. He's probably not goign to shoot me until I do because he's not going to want to have to waste time searching my body for the wallet after the gun goes off and attracts attention. However, if I get the sense that he's gonna kill me as soon as he has my wallet, and I have nowhere to go, you'd better believe I'm going for the disarm.

The important thing in the disarm is not worrying about getting the gun away from him before he can pull the trigger. The important thing is getting the gun pointed somewhere other than at you before he can pull the trigger. It takes much less time to do this, and it is done in the hopes that his reaction time is not sufficiently fast for him TO pull the trigger before you can get it done.

It's not a 100% certainty you're gonna disarm, but it's also not a 100% certainty you're gonna get shot. If there's no other option, I say go for it. And it's a lot easier to go for it if you've trained for it.

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#97553 - 06/09/04 11:10 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
MartinR Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/04
Posts: 109
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
One of my uncles disarmed a man who pulled a pistol on him a few years ago. (He had seen someone trying to take a trailer from his place of buisiness). If I remember correctly, he simply grabbed the gun and ripped it out of the guy's hand. (I don't think he used "fine motor skills").

He's no martial artist, at the time he was about 60 year and had been a farmer and trader tossing hay bales most of his life (mitts like steel traps).

I wasn't there, but it seemed to me that he could have been safer to simply call the sheriff's department rather than confront the guys. On the other hand, this was rural North Carolina and he might have lost his trailer. Also, when the gun was drawn, he could simply have let them take the trailer.
For whatever reason he didn't - fortunately no one was injured or killed.

I've practiced gun disarms in the past, but never on a regular basis. Some "seem" to work okay with a rubber gun. However, I'd tend to agree with many of the other comments that I'd probably try one only if I felt it was my only chance of survival.

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#97554 - 06/21/04 06:14 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
Anonymous
Unregistered


Very pretty technique. Nice armbar.

Other than that? Not too crazy about it.

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#97555 - 06/23/04 08:30 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Most disarms are taught by grabbing the gun hand. This is a very dangerous technique. First it requires fine motor skills that you will not have under high threat. Second it does not control the field of fire and is easily counter by pulling back which will center the gun on your body.

A better technique is demonstrated in the move of the month. www.lonewolfjujutsu.com
Thanks Ed
[/QUOTE]

Your so fare off... By grabbing the gun lets assume that were talking about point blank range pistol disarming techniques. We teach 8 different disarm techniques from the "standing point blank range" which means the gun is against you or very close. We teach with the rubber gun and a blank 9mm pistol that is the same wieght and look of an original style, it is very loud when fired too. After a student learns the technique and has practiced it a while it is just about impossible for the shooter to beat them, that's right. You would be very surprized how long it take for a person to pull the trigger vs. being disarmed. Anyone that is into self defense I highly recommend the toy cap gun or blank pistol training, not only is it great training it is fun to see who is the fastest. Again these are very close street combat techniques and are not the same as someone pointing a gun at you ten feet away. Disarming anyone with a real pistol at any distance is very dangerous and I advise giving up the cash unless your real confident with the techniques.

"Posted by Ed"
Second it does not control the field of fire and is easily counter by pulling back which will center the gun on your body.

Ed,the first thing you do when disarming a pistol is re-direct the barrell to control the field of fire, most of the time the barrell is pointed back at the shooter. After the technique is in motion your chances of pulling back are...how should I say... your already laying on your back with your own pistol pointing at you.

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#97556 - 06/23/04 03:27 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
I disagree. It is one thing to pull off a "trick" under controlled conditions ie classroom. It is another to pull it off under real conditions ie rain, night ect.
Grabbing the gun hand and twisting the gun inside or outside does not control the attacker. If you even get to hold on to the gun hand in the first place. It is like trying to hold on to someones hand with one hand. If the person is not "uke" compliant you will not get it for long.
The attacker is more likely to punch you in the face than you are likly to disarm him. Plus if the attacker knows anything about retention techniques all he would have to do is fall to his back and the gun you are trying to get will be pointed right back at you. Secondly you have little arm strength with your arms extended going for the disarm. Both parties arm more likly to grab the gun with both hands preventing the disarm and if you have lower mass than the subject that you are disarming he will throw you around. Simply physics.
With the technique I have shown you are moving in and controlling the body or another way of saying it you have better control over his mass. If you do not get the armbar then I would go with twisting the wrist and the gun into the attacker. You have more arm strength in this position because yor arms are bent tight to your body. The leverage is much easier to do.

Yes the standard pistol disarm taught is the deflect the gun, twist it into the perp and thru wrist leverage disarm the attacker.
It can work but it is not fool proof and is defensive in nature. Again the simple counter to this is to fall down.

Another thing you have to think about is when it is for real, your nervous system reacts differently then in the classroom setting. Besides getting tunnel vision your fine motor skills are sluggish. That is what is required to do your technique. So unless you have the training and or the experience you will not be able to pull your technique off. You are most likly to telegragh or miss grabbing the gun hand.
Which brings me to a question. What if you miss grabbing the gun hand? Then what is your next move? Realize now your attacker is backing away from you. At least with my technique I am in constant contact with the attacker, If I mess it up, I can still go to another technique. Ed

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#97557 - 06/23/04 03:52 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
I disagree. It is one thing to pull off a "trick" under controlled conditions ie classroom. It is another to pull it off under real conditions ie rain, night ect.
Grabbing the gun hand and twisting the gun inside or outside does not control the attacker. If you even get to hold on to the gun hand in the first place. It is like trying to hold on to someones hand with one hand. If the person is not "uke" compliant you will not get it for long.
The attacker is more likely to punch you in the face than you are likly to disarm him. Plus if the attacker knows anything about retention techniques all he would have to do is fall to his back and the gun you are trying to get will be pointed right back at you. Secondly you have little arm strength with your arms extended going for the disarm. Both parties arm more likly to grab the gun with both hands preventing the disarm and if you have lower mass than the subject that you are disarming he will throw you around. Simply physics.
With the technique I have shown you are moving in and controlling the body or another way of saying it you have better control over his mass. If you do not get the armbar then I would go with twisting the wrist and the gun into the attacker. You have more arm strength in this position because yor arms are bent tight to your body. The leverage is much easier to do.

Yes the standard pistol disarm taught is the deflect the gun, twist it into the perp and thru wrist leverage disarm the attacker.
It can work but it is not fool proof and is defensive in nature. Again the simple counter to this is to fall down.

Another thing you have to think about is when it is for real, your nervous system reacts differently then in the classroom setting. Besides getting tunnel vision your fine motor skills are sluggish. That is what is required to do your technique. So unless you have the training and or the experience you will not be able to pull your technique off. You are most likly to telegragh or miss grabbing the gun hand.
Which brings me to a question. What if you miss grabbing the gun hand? Then what is your next move? Realize now your attacker is backing away from you. At least with my technique I am in constant contact with the attacker, If I mess it up, I can still go to another technique. Ed
[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you have all the answers Ed. First do you have a self defense program at your Dojo that does the point blank pistol disarmament techniques? What if, what if, what if....sure every self defense technique has what if's. All aside I would rather know the techniques and at least make an effort to save my life or my family's life rather than being a frieghtend victim that froze from lack of knowledge.

Ed's post
So unless you have the training and or the experience you will not be able to pull your technique off.

.......and that's why we train.

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