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#97538 - 05/24/04 11:23 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
I took a class at Temple University 2 semesters ago called "Victims of Crime." Based on the majority of incidents, people who are victimized with a gun are less likely to be hurt than if victimized with another weapon. The reason is this: most people will cooperate if a gun is in their face. Coincidentally, most criminals will take what they want and leave the victim.

On the other hand, if the criminal has a knife, bat, or other weapon, the victim sees a better chance to fight back and will usually sustain an injury. In other words, in MOST cases, if you cooperate with a gun weilding robber, you will be left unharmed.
All the above info was learned in a criminal justice class based on study. It is not my opinion brought out of the air or from popular media. Also, as stated, it is most cases that I am talking about. With all that said, I would cooperate with the gunman and MOST LIKELY escape unharmed (less a new ego problem).

Also, I've had a personal experience with a gun. I was sitting in a chair and a guy came up behind me. I didn't know he was there until he put the gun to the back of my head. He was holding the chair under the desk I was sitting at with one hand and the gun on me with the other. Not only did I have a gun against me, I had no leverage to react even if I wanted to, as he was holding the chair I was sitting in under the desk. He took some money and left. You may be wondering how I was in such a bad situation. It was a part time college job at a gas station and I was there alone. The side door was left unlocked and my back was facing that door. I honestly don't know how I would have reacted if I was on my feet: would I fight back or cooperate? Hopefully cooperate, because the guy left. If I chose to fight, I may be a dead man.

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#97539 - 05/24/04 11:25 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
[QUOTE]
Is it really possible for the defendant to be able to move quicker than the guy with the gun can fire?
[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is really possible. However, there are some important things to keep in mind. The way Ed's photos were taken, it is difficult to determine if he is keeping those things in mind or not.

There is always a delay between our action and an observer's reaction, and there are some things you can do to increase that delay. You can generally move your hands a couple of feet before a person can react. Combine that with shifting your body/footwork, and you can make some real progress before the trigger gets pulled.

[QUOTE]
Have you tried it with something like a paintball gun?
[/QUOTE]

Nope. Paintball guns are big, unwieldy, and make a mess. Start with rubber guns, as they approximate the size and weight of a real gun quite well and reduce the chance of injury to the shooter if you wrench his finger in the trigger guard or bystanders if the gun goes flying. Later, if you are serious about this kind of thing, look into getting an "air soft" gun. They are modelled very much like the real thing and shoot a largish, plastic BB at a decent velocity. It hurts about like a bee sting to get popped with one, but a slight pain penalty has some educational benefit. Wear eye protection!!!

[QUOTE]
Not to say that it couldn't be done, only that it would be VERY low percentage. I advocate staying out of harms way over learning GUN disarms. Spend your training time wisely folks.
[/QUOTE]

John, you often give what I consider to be some of the best advice available on this forum, but I have to disagree with you here. The thing is, we all practice avoidance and no one (short of the truly deranged) goes looking to have a gun stuck in his face. But it happens... I live in a city that has the highest per capita murder rate in the United States. I have been mugged at gun point, and I personally know others who have. I personally knew someone who was shot and killed here. If and when that day comes, you don't want to show up with an empty tool box.

Just deciding it's not as likely to happen as a run of the mill scuffle and dropping it from your training syllabus is a bad idea. We all like to practice the things we are good at and the things we feel like we could be successful at. Gun/knife work is difficult and unfulfilling given how often you "lose". But it is important, and I think a few minutes of each training session spent working it is NOT time wasted.

Most attackers will not approach someone if unless they feel the deck is somehow stacked in their favor, and more often than not these days that extra edge comes in the form of carrying a weapon. Practice facing them in your training-- if nothing else it will help you understand why the other things (awareness and avoidance) are SO important.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#97540 - 05/24/04 07:38 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Good post

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#97541 - 05/24/04 08:19 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the504mikey:
John, you often give what I consider to be some of the best advice available on this forum, but I have to disagree with you here. The thing is, we all practice avoidance and no one (short of the truly deranged) goes looking to have a gun stuck in his face. But it happens... I live in a city that has the highest per capita murder rate in the United States. I have been mugged at gun point, and I personally know others who have. I personally knew someone who was shot and killed here. If and when that day comes, you don't want to show up with an empty tool box.

Just deciding it's not as likely to happen as a run of the mill scuffle and dropping it from your training syllabus is a bad idea. We all like to practice the things we are good at and the things we feel like we could be successful at. Gun/knife work is difficult and unfulfilling given how often you "lose". But it is important, and I think a few minutes of each training session spent working it is NOT time wasted.

Most attackers will not approach someone if unless they feel the deck is somehow stacked in their favor, and more often than not these days that extra edge comes in the form of carrying a weapon. Practice facing them in your training-- if nothing else it will help you understand why the other things (awareness and avoidance) are SO important.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]


Fair enough! My opinions are just that -- my opinions. Everyone is naturally welcome to their own. But I have to be honest here with my own.

In my opinion, practicing gun disarms is nothing more than mental masturbation. But like I said, thats my opinion, and if it makes people sleep better, who am I to say that it's wrong.

In my view, it's more realistic to practice knife disarms, however unrealistic THAT may be as well. Tell you this much, I can still fight for the most part if I've been cut once, but being shot...that's another story. That said, I'd STILL rather run when faced with a blade, yet I do realize that you can't outrun a bullet. That's the reason I'm more tempted just to hand everything over. If the guy wants my life, then I have no choice but to go out fighting. Those are the chances I'm willing to take. I also realize that, when it's my time to go, it's my time to go.

Actually, I'd rather just not do something stupid enough to put myself in a bad way against a guy with a gun. I understand that things happen, but sometimes, those things just can't be dealt with. "Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you". Unfortunately, that's just the way it is.

What the hell does all that mean? It means, you can practice all you want and STILL won't mean a thing if a guy has a bead on you.

However folks, maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps gun disarms DO work....Maybe...possibly.

Why can't I shake the image of "Bob Jackson", the karate instructor teaching knife defense though??
http://www.thetravisty.com/Living_Color.php?ID=Karate_Instructor.wmv


-John

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#97542 - 05/24/04 10:51 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
Well I like what both of you say in the forums. You both dispense sound advice. But the key is like 504 said. Awarness and avoidance should be your first line of defense against being a victum. Criminals look for there mark in the same way Lions look for weak cantalope. So keep you head up and on the swivel at all times. Make eye contact with everyone. Look over both shoulders constantly. If you know someone is walking behind you keep an eye on them. Turn your head to the side and stare at them out of the corner of your eye fist clenched. As far as practicing gun disarms. John is correct in the assumtion that most gun wielding criminals just want your money and their gone. Personally for me its not about the money, or my life, but the principal. Criminals will never stop if we just let them take our money. What if next time this criminal shoots someone else. I won't have that on my conscience. I choose to act and potentially take one for the team. Thats what being a citizen is all about. Thats why weapon work constitutes so much of my training.

Shepards we shall be, for thee Lord for thee.

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#97543 - 05/25/04 09:34 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
xerxes Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 515
Loc: Georgia, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by otobeawanker:
Well I like what both of you say in the forums. You both dispense sound advice. But the key is like 504 said. Awarness and avoidance should be your first line of defense against being a victum. Criminals look for there mark in the same way Lions look for weak cantalope. So keep you head up and on the swivel at all times. Make eye contact with everyone. Look over both shoulders constantly. If you know someone is walking behind you keep an eye on them. Turn your head to the side and stare at them out of the corner of your eye fist clenched. As far as practicing gun disarms. John is correct in the assumtion that most gun wielding criminals just want your money and their gone. Personally for me its not about the money, or my life, but the principal. Criminals will never stop if we just let them take our money. What if next time this criminal shoots someone else. I won't have that on my conscience. I choose to act and potentially take one for the team. Thats what being a citizen is all about. Thats why weapon work constitutes so much of my training.

Shepards we shall be, for thee Lord for thee.
[/QUOTE]

I think you meant antelope rather than cantalope. Cantalopes may be sweet and juicy but they just don't have enough meat to satisfy a lion. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#97544 - 05/25/04 10:22 AM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
[QUOTE]
John said:
In my view, it's more realistic to practice knife disarms, however unrealistic THAT may be as well. Tell you this much, I can still fight for the most part if I've been cut once, but being shot...that's another story.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, you might want to look at some of the statistics for gun fatalities vs. knife fatalities. I don't have them in front of me, but stabbing victims die more often than shooting victims. It goes against intuition, but that's the numbers. I think they may be skewed by the personal (domestic, sex crime) nature of many knife assaults. (All statistics should be viewed critically.)

Anyway, I find I fare much better in training against the gun than the knife, but only for the contrived way in which we game it out-- guy standing too close, most of the guys in the dojo have no real handgun retention training, etc. There is one police officer in the class with good handgun skills, he shoots me almost every time, usually after inflicting some nice bruises with the off hand.

Knives scare me even more than guns-- a handgun is lethal in one and only one direction. A knife, on the other hand, never runs out of ammo, never jams, and can't be grabbed and twisted out of the hand. If you can avert the muzzle of a handgun, there are some things you can do to render it inoperative.

Sure, we can fight on if we get cut, but consider the wound channel created by a blade that is punched in and ripped down and out-- this can acutually cause as much or even more trauma than a 9mm round.

[QUOTE]
That said, I'd STILL rather run when faced with a blade, yet I do realize that you can't outrun a bullet. That's the reason I'm more tempted just to hand everything over. If the guy wants my life, then I have no choice but to go out fighting. Those are the chances I'm willing to take. I also realize that, when it's my time to go, it's my time to go
[/QUOTE]

AMEN to that! In my own gun story, there were two actors involved, only one with a gun. They walked right past me and my girlfriend-- I have a way of issuing a "challenging greeting" when I see the local thug types on the street. I say "what's up" in a way that could be just a friendly greeting but it's laced with that "don't mess with me" undertone. They returned the greeting and kept going-- and then stuck the gun to my girlfriend's sister's head. She had lagged just a few steps behind us, and strayed from the herd. We walked back to the guys and made our contributions. I would be lying if I didn't say the idea of resisting briefly crossed my mind, but the odds didn't look good. One guy had the gun to her head, the other had his hand in his jacket like he was ready to draw. I doubt he had a gun, or he would have shown it, but you never know.

Anyway, the take away message is that compliance worked for me. We got home pissed off, minus some cash, but with no extra holes in any of us. Honestly, I think even if there weren't any extra lives at stake (gee honey, I'm sorry I got your sister killed trying to be a tough guy) and I were alone I would most likely comply if I thought it would work. I guess you never know until it happens, though. Still, we have plenty of tough guys around here who shoot with little or no provocation, and it makes me feel a little better to think I have some practice working against guns if I am forced to try it for real. The last killing we had here involved a guy leaving Jazz Fest. There were four kids in the shooting group, only one armed, all between the ages of 14 and 16. They robbed and shot (or shot and robbed, only they know) a 55 year old man. Maybe there was an instant before he got popped when he got a chance, maybe a little grandstanding for the other kids before the trigger was pulled, gun too close. You just never know. He was shot one time in the head, which makes me think the shooter was fairly close-- let's face it, most of these guys aren't real good shots.

Anyway, I think it is a fair characterization to say practicing against weapons is a form of "mental masturbation". Your odds against a goal oriented, trained (or just practiced), armed assailant are really not good. That's just how it is. But like Dr. Ruth would say, a little masturbation is fun and healthy as long as it doesn't get in the way of the other things you should be doing.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Like you said, if it's your time to go, it's your time-- go out with some class and fall swinging.

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#97545 - 05/25/04 02:18 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Ed, not a bad technique but not the one I would chose. I'm going to refer to Bruce lee's dictim of "absorb what is useful" here. As an LEO who works 100% of the time in the ghetto I'm privy to some inside information. The criminal community and the lower socioecononic types in general regard "gun grabbing" as an article of faith. I've had 10 year olds tell me that they could take my gun if I drew it when I was up close. And guess what? after some talk with them,,they knew what they doing! They knew about reaction time time and which direction to twist to take advantage of strong vs weak wrist muscles. Other street kids kids and guys have demonstrated it for me and they were fast, precise and decisive. Their moves were a lot like the ones we learned at the academy in weapons retention training. We were taught a take away move so we'd know what to expect and to give give us a shot at regaining control of our own or the other guy's weapon in a close up crisis. Most Prison guards will tell you that the inmates practice gun grabs and knife fighting while they're locked down. So,,my point is, why re-invent the wheel? Considering the numbers of cops killed with teir own guns I'd say that the techniques in use on the street represent a perverse kind of success story. K-

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#97546 - 05/25/04 03:22 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
0goun Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 130
Loc: Brooklyn, NY, USA
If it is a simple mugging, I'll will give away my wallet without hesitation. However, If I have reason to believe the assailant will shoot me anyway, then it becomes a choice between a possible non-lethal wound and a lethal one. I know which choice I would make. Which choice would you make?

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#97547 - 05/25/04 03:39 PM Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Because I think my wheel is better. Take the wrist turning techniques that they teach in the PD and try them against a two handed grip. My technique still works extreemly well no matter how you hold the gun. How do you disarm someone with the gun CQC tight to his body? Do not try the wrist break. My point being if you do not control the perps body then your chances of failure are greatly increased. I think most cops loose their weapons due to a. getting knocked out, b. having no clue about retentions skills and c. having poor grappling skills. My opinion on what I have wittnessed.
As far as giving up your wallet mindset..I can not read minds. And if I misjudge someones intentions then I am already late. At least with an offensive mindset I am calling the shots. I am disiding what will happen. Ed

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