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#96768 - 03/29/04 06:50 AM attacked from behind
Anonymous
Unregistered


Another one from proffessor Gene:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=420

I would attempt this in the dojo, not so sure about on the street, especially concrete. That could be just me, my breakfalling sucks. What do the more experienced grapplers think of this defence, bearing in mind the person being attacked is a women (lighter, weaker).
a) would those of you who are accomplished in breakfalling attempt this sort of sacrifice throw in the dojo/on the street?
b) would you recommend it to someone like myself (ie NOT at all accomplished in landing unlike a sack of spuds
c) if not, what would you reccomend instead?

Thanks
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 03-29-2004).]

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#96769 - 03/29/04 08:34 AM Re: attacked from behind
dazzler2 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 148
Loc: england
Hmmm!

My suggestion is to put that right hand or elbow to work!

I'd also get my right leg behind the guy and maybe look for some form of takedown.

Professor Gene...If that guy decides to drop to one knee then that young lady has just put herself into a backbreaker over it.

That looks like self destruction not self defence.

Of course it could just be the photos...its easy from a keyboard.

D

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#96770 - 03/29/04 10:07 AM Re: attacked from behind
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
I've practiced and taken the fall for some of these techniques...

My take on it:

If you stand there and let it happpen, and someone (even someone light) manages to jump up and hang his or her entire body weight in the crook of your elbow, then you're going for a rough and sudden ride.

There are a lot of "If's" in there, and I'm not done yet! It takes a lot of commitment to the technique on the defender's part to make something like this fly (no pun intended). As Dazzler pointed out, if the attacker changes his plans before you break his balance he can turn an attempt like this one into a complete disaster for the defender.

I'm a big fan of using your body weight in the crook of a person's elbow to take him down or break his posture-- it's simple and very effective. But there are lots of ways to do it while keeping both your own feet on the ground and your backup options open.

I like sacrifice throws a lot, too, but not this one. It is too hard to get the leverage where it needs to be to make this one work, and all the outcomes of it not working are bad for the defender. IMO this one is dojo only, just to play with a neat thing and learn some body mechanics you can use for other stuff. Maybe one day my understanding will deepen to the point where I feel like I could trust something like this outside the dojo, but I've been concentrating on this stuff for a few years now and I'm not there yet.

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#96771 - 03/29/04 10:53 AM Re: attacked from behind
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I agree with Mikey. You can flip somebody over your back by controlling the crook of the elbow and dropping down to one knee. You don't have to launch your body into the air and slam yourself onto the pavement.

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#96772 - 03/29/04 12:50 PM Re: attacked from behind
sunspots Offline
oldtimer/newbie
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 650
Loc: Southern Oregon, USA
I would not even attempt the kind of body-slam this seems to call for.

If I were the defender in this one, I would turn my head to the right to release the pressure on my breathing, step off left, and throw a couple of quick hard right elbows to the stomach, and/or hammer the groin. This should at least soften the attacker up, so I could slip out of his grasp. Scoop kicks to the groin might also be useful, or good old-fashioned foot stomps.

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#96773 - 03/29/04 02:25 PM Re: attacked from behind
Anonymous
Unregistered


The problem with this move and every other self defense movement is it is based on a static attacker.

If someone grabs you from behind, placing there hand over your mouth-it is for one reason-they are MOVING you somewhere else. This means they will drag you backwards. No attacker is going to grab you and stand there waiting for your counter.

Try to foot stomp,scoop kick, fly up into air, pull attacker forward when they grab you and drag you backwards. It is not easy, especialy if they outweigh you and are stronger than you.

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#96774 - 03/29/04 06:04 PM Re: attacked from behind
exceptionist 2 Offline
one arm napalm punch

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 438
Loc: Kanagawa Tokyo, Japan
From the picture a few opportunities are presented:

1. The hand of the defender is conveniently close to the groin of the attacker.
2. If the attacker puts his hand near your mouth...well. (Given you divert the focus/pressure from his hand covering your mouth)to something else-foot stomp turning while trying to bite.
3. An attempt to sink your head and turn towards the elbow of the raised arm of the attacker is personally what I would do. Done suddenly; will give you the close range lifting or take down you want in the terms of grappling. I would prefer to strike, but the question was on a grappling basis.

I agree with most; that unless you are fairly heavy enough to cause your opp. to fall with you, this move is a set up for disaster.

the exception

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#96775 - 03/29/04 08:13 PM Re: attacked from behind
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
This brings to mind a mugging attack in NY. The mugger grabbed a threw the woman to the ground from behind. I think this authors counter is garbage. First of all you are going to be stunned. And grabbing the muggers arm and rolling him wouldn't really work in the classroom either. Condition you mind and body to go belly button to belly button. So even if you are stunned, you will go to your back and your next goal would be to go for the guard while you get your wits about you. Ed

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#96776 - 03/29/04 09:03 PM Re: attacked from behind
Anonymous
Unregistered


Agreed, Ed. No one grabs you without the intent to move you,throw you down.

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#96777 - 03/30/04 12:05 AM Re: attacked from behind
Anonymous
Unregistered


Been working on this with my husband and found the following:

First if my mouth is closed, no way can I bite.

Second, if he is dragging me backwards (which, I agree is the most likely scenario)it is very difficult to get an elbow strike in. The best options seemed to be either stomping my heel down his shin, or grabbing his genitals and squeezing and twisting. The shin attack is only annoying because I could not stomp hard enough whilst moving backwards off balance and causes him to move backwards even faster and/or lift me off the ground completely.

Twisting the genitals HARD seems to be the best bet, this gave me enough space to twist my body to the left towards him, releasing his grip on my mouth. I also tried attacking his eyes with one hand whilst simultaneously attacking his groin with the other. This was not possible as he is too tall.

Any other ideas?
Sharon

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#96778 - 03/30/04 08:14 AM Re: attacked from behind
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Twisting the genitals HARD seems to be the best bet, Sharon[/QUOTE]

errr...., is he like, okay?

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Al.

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#96779 - 03/30/04 09:31 AM Re: attacked from behind
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
You can shift your hips over to one side to clear a striking line for the genital area, and then hammer fist back right into the cookies.

I think that's a good first step because it may cause the attacker to shift his hips back to avoid getting smacked in the groin and this will slow or stop his backward movement. From there you can work a leg behind him and shove him over it.

I don't want to start a BJJ holy war, but I don't agree with the idea of going down on the ground and into guard as a good first choice-- if a male attacks a female there is a chance his plans involve having her on her back pinned under him. If she reflexively flops down to guard, he's going to be appreciative because she is furthering his agenda.

Keep your feet for as long as you can, and if getting taken down is unavoidable THEN work from the guard.

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#96780 - 03/30/04 02:33 PM Re: attacked from behind
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
The guard is a great place to regain control of your opponent when thrown to the ground. Womens legs are more powerfull than their arms. I would not stay there. The guard is transitional. There are plenty of sweeps to get you back on your feet. Ed

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#96781 - 03/30/04 03:40 PM Re: attacked from behind
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
[QUOTE]
The guard is a great place to regain control of your opponent when thrown to the ground.
[/QUOTE]

I agree-- with the caveat that a person (male or female) should do everything practically possible to avoid being thrown to the ground in the first place. Sometimes, we can't avoid it, so everyone should be comfortable working from the ground.

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#96782 - 03/31/04 10:39 AM Re: attacked from behind
Aikinage Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/04
Posts: 28
Loc: Kettering, Ohio, USA
I do not at all care for Prof. Gene's technique in this instance. In my school, there are a number of barely 100# females, all of whom are formidable adversaries, and none of them would attempt that garbage. If you are already picked off the ground in that manner, control is not yours, hence, the fall will most likely be bad, adding to it that the assailants weight is going to come down on you. I am also not much for genital grabbing...I can resist that myself for at least 15-20 seconds. However, 4 inches below the groin, this includes males and females, is some very sensitive skin tissue that can be rolled/wrapped around the fingers...which I have also experienced and the degree of pain is beyond tolerance. This is also useful behind the tricep, sides of ribs, abdominal obliques. Not to mention stomping the instep, back head smash, and if available...controlled eye gouging. Just my thoughts.

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#96783 - 03/31/04 03:32 PM Re: attacked from behind
mikelw Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1031
Loc: Bothell, Washington (not DC), ...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
The guard is a great place to regain control of your opponent when thrown to the ground. Womens legs are more powerfull than their arms. I would not stay there. The guard is transitional. There are plenty of sweeps to get you back on your feet. Ed[/QUOTE]


If a woman has a bigger, stronger man in her guard, unless she knows some bjj (and is quite good), that guy isn't going to be swept.

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#96784 - 04/01/04 03:27 AM Re: attacked from behind
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
If she has him in the guard then it is assumed that she does know some BJJ. Otherwise she'd probally try to get to her knees.Wether the guy is big and strong or not, there still are sweeps/turn-overs that can be used. Ed

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 04-01-2004).]

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#96785 - 04/01/04 10:35 AM Re: attacked from behind
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ed, not necessarily. Classic rape position(man between womans legs) is basicly the guard position, the woman just might not know that(no training).

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#96786 - 04/03/04 07:28 PM Re: attacked from behind
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
That whole scenario was garbage. She should crouch and step left and back while hammerfisting the guys sensitive areas. Whilst stepping back she could easily grab the arm for a arm lock chokehold technique from behind him.

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#96787 - 04/04/04 04:35 PM Re: attacked from behind
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Yeah ok...I saw that one on TV too!

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#96788 - 04/05/04 08:17 PM Re: attacked from behind
Jim Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 302
Loc: Munich
I would have thought an option would be to bite the hand over the mouth whilst trying to snap a couple of the fingers over the waist+ scraping kicks down the fronts of his shins.

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#96789 - 04/14/04 03:43 PM Re: attacked from behind
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Breaking the fingers of an enraged rapist usually does not work. While you have two hand grip on his fingers, he is punching you in the head with the other. ed

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#96790 - 04/14/04 10:59 PM Re: attacked from behind
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Yeah, Ed speaks from experience.

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#96791 - 04/15/04 05:37 PM Re: attacked from behind
xerxes Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 515
Loc: Georgia, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Yeah, Ed speaks from experience.[/QUOTE]

Oh, come on, Chen. I have never been terribly impressed with Ed Glasheen but even I think that was a bit much.

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#96792 - 04/15/04 07:41 PM Re: attacked from behind
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim:
I would have thought an option would be to bite the hand over the mouth whilst trying to snap a couple of the fingers over the waist+ scraping kicks down the fronts of his shins. [/QUOTE]

Most of the time, biting the hand will not be possible.

Grabbing fingers and snapping them is not as easy as you might think.

Scraping your foot down the shin may not do anything other than annoy the attacker, also in that scenario your attacker will be dragging you backwards,no balance to kick.

I would not rule out trying any of the above, just not the best options.

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#436317 - 08/16/14 04:59 PM Re: attacked from behind [Re: Anonymous]
AndyLA Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/27/14
Posts: 9
Loc: East Sussex, UK
First thing first keep it simple and defend yourself with minimum effort and with maximum affect. Let us look at this grab from the rear. He has grabbed her from the rear but both the girl’s hands are still free, she can now carry out a series of proven techniques – (1) she can stamp down very hard on his Instep or foot which would result in a lot of pain and possible dislocation of bones. (2) Followed by 1, 2 or 3 hard blows against his side ribs or Solar Plexus with her right elbow either could cause disrupting breathing or unconsciousness. (3) With her right hand she grabs hold of one of his fingers and as she forces back his single finger she turns towards him, gives him a swift kick to his knee, releases his finger and runs away from the sight.
Sadly in my 40 years of the study of Self-defense I have never seen a girl or young lady throwing herself in the in the air, now if someone did attempt that chances are that brute that held her would more than likely assist her by slamming her down on to the ground and then kicking her to death – no ladies don’t ever try it.
Andy LA

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#436331 - 09/07/14 07:01 PM Re: attacked from behind [Re: Anonymous]
AndyLA Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/27/14
Posts: 9
Loc: East Sussex, UK
First thing first keep it simple and defend yourself with minimum effort and with maximum affect. Let us look at this grab from the rear. He has grabbed her from the rear but both the girl’s hands are still free, she can now carry out a series of proven techniques – (1) she can stamp down very hard on his Instep or foot which would result in a lot of pain and possible dislocation of bones. (2) Followed by 1, 2 or 3 hard blows against his side ribs or Solar Plexus with her right elbow either could cause disrupting breathing or unconsciousness. (3) With her right hand she grabs hold of one of his fingers and as she forces back his single finger she turns towards him, gives him a swift kick to his knee, releases his finger and runs away from the sight.
Sadly in my 40 years of the study of Self-defense I have never seen a girl or young lady throwing herself in the in the air, now if someone did attempt that chances are that brute that held her would more than likely assist her by slamming her down on to the ground and then kicking her to death – no ladies don’t ever try it.
Andy LA

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#436338 - 09/19/14 09:05 AM Re: attacked from behind [Re: Anonymous]
AndyLA Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/27/14
Posts: 9
Loc: East Sussex, UK
For the none acrobatic Student eager to learn Self-Defense and avoid Professor’s Gene’s jumping and twisting techniques; may I offer this simple free eBook Which I have written for the truly serious Self-Defense Student. No catch, my only desire is to assist those who truly wish to learn the art of Self-Defense the means to confidently avoid a conflict, and how to execute a simple technique. And you wouldn’t have to jump in the air to defeat your attacker either. Visit - http://familyself-defencemanual.com/
Andy LA

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