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#96582 - 03/04/04 07:39 AM Re: Breakfalling without mats
Lo C'hi Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 88
Loc: L.I.,N.Y.
I was always taught that the purpose of a "slap out" was to redistribute the force of a fall over a greater surface area and prevent serious injuries. It also positions the body for shoulder and back rolls and controls the momentum of the fall to spring back up or to assume a ground fighting guard position.

That would make it even more important to slap a hard surface.
I will take the bumps and bruises over broken bones anyday, and throw a few kicks and attempt my favorite monkey foot technique while I am down there.

Train hard and be well.

Al

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#96583 - 03/04/04 05:11 PM Re: Breakfalling without mats
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
LoChi, true, it is important to slap, but you cant do it the way you would on a mat. First, you should ROLL if at all possible, until your momentum is low enough to make slapping feasible. If you HAVE to breakfall, you have to protect your head first, then joints and bones, then worry about meat. So when you slap, don't do it flat armed like on a mat, try to keep your elbow from hitting, cause it WILL break. Same with knees. Its better to "slap" with the bottom of your shoe than the side. Ankle damage, dontchaknow.

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#96584 - 03/08/04 02:55 PM Re: Breakfalling without mats
Lo C'hi Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 88
Loc: L.I.,N.Y.
Hi Jamoni,
I agree about breakfalling adaptations on hard surfaces but my only adjustment is to make sure I use the palm of my hand to hit the ground rather than the back of my hand , which I sometimes use in class. Using the back of the hand positions the point of your elbow to make contact with the ground and that is not a good idea, as you mentioned.
My slap outs include my chin tucked into my chest and a half roll to absorb the force of the fall without having to take my eyes off the opponent.
I feel rolling too soon during or after a fall is a very vulnerable position. I know that if I was the one to throw or drop a dangerous opponent, I will be following closely while he is in the air, and striking when he hits the ground.
I think that the direction more than the momentum of the throw determines whether to roll or slap. If you are thrown straight down, like in a major reap, I would think a roll is not the best option.

Train hard and be well.

Al

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#96585 - 03/08/04 03:08 PM Re: Breakfalling without mats
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
The adjustment you suggest is un-necessary.

No slapping on a breakfall should be done with the back of your hand. It should always be done with the palm down.

If you have to make the adjustment you said, you're doing it wrong in the first place.

JohnL

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#96586 - 03/09/04 09:25 AM Re: Breakfalling without mats
Lo C'hi Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 88
Loc: L.I.,N.Y.
Well, John, I can not say that I agree with you this time. There are times when the back of the hand is the best choice.
My first response was for a full weight drop and we agree that palm down is the way to go (if you can not roll), but I did recall times in class when I used the back of my hand to slap out. It did not seem like a bright thing to do on hard surfaces, so to reply to Sharon's question I wanted to make the point that palm down is safer, but since one school that I work out in is a concrete floor with minimal padding I tried to recall when the back of the hand worked for me.

The first example that comes to mind is when there is an arm wrap involved and your full weight will not hit the ground but you want to get as much space as possible between your body and the punches that will be thrown. In this case it would look like a crane's wrist strike to the floor and I will be using my weight and momentum to pull the attacker to the ground with me before he can strike, like a side roll. The back of the hand sets up the roll to that side.
If I see the palm down when I have unbalanced an opponent with an arm wrap and sweep, I will push in that direction to bend the fingers and wrist in the wrong direction.

Al

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#96587 - 03/09/04 09:49 AM Re: Breakfalling without mats
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Lo C'hi

Thanks for the reply, but I do not accept what you say.

I have never seen, nor seen taught, a breakfall where you slap out with the back of your hand. All you will succeed in doing is breaking the bones of your hand due to the lack of padding on the back.

As for locking your opponents wrist when he slaps out. The chances of you recognising when someone slaps out palm up/down and being able to take advantage of it are miniscule. In any case the wrist locks in both directions so it wouldn't matter.

As such, I believe the advice you're giving to be flawed and could result in injuries by the people that take it.

JohnL

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#96588 - 03/09/04 12:13 PM Re: Breakfalling without mats
Lo C'hi Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 88
Loc: L.I.,N.Y.
I understand your position John, and do not expect to change your mind about the validity of this technique but I am not advising anyone to use the back of the hand for EVERY breakfall. That was just an example to show it can work in the right situation to disagree with your claim that it should never be done. I know it can work because I have used it on many occasions, many indoor and some outdoor.
During a normal class, I will be hitting the floor 50-100 times as well as throwing other people the same number. I have been practicing consistently for the past 10 years with no major injuries and considering I am 5'6", 140 lbs, and 48 years old, I may be doing something right. Very few students are smaller than me and even fewer are older so if my methods were that dangerous, I would not have survived this long.

In my second reply I made sure inexperienced people knew the palm is safer because no previous replies made that clear.

I would expect people to keep an open mind and practice new techniques in a controlled environment where there is less risk of injury and they can decide on their own if it can work for them.

There is not much else I can add to this topic, so y'all have a great day.

Al

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#96589 - 03/09/04 04:11 PM Re: Breakfalling without mats
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
This was the first warm dry weekend in some time, so I took the opportunity to go "practice my rolls and breakfalls". Got out the skateboard and tore up the town. And my elbow. And knee. Considering the speeds I was working with, I think my field testing shows my technique to be quite advanced. I think I'll start a thread on non martial applications of martial arts training.

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#96590 - 03/09/04 04:51 PM Re: Breakfalling without mats
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Rolling and taking breakfalls on grass are great fun. The trick is not to slide...

My sensei and I once visited a Karate studio and ended up showing a few throws to the class. Thankfully after the first breakfall on the wood, my sensei rolled me out of everything else. It hurt but nothing was broken and I didn't modify my fall at all.

Did I mention that it hurt?

Chris

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#96591 - 03/09/04 05:35 PM Re: Breakfalling without mats
Energy Master Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 76
Loc: VA
Well, I wouldn't try it on concrete until you get use to the motion and how it feels. You should probably start with like a mat. And then grass, then dirt. You know. Until you get use to it.

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