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#95184 - 09/13/03 07:06 AM Re: Offensive Knife Technique
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Right, this is way ott.

Defence against knife attack, from determined aggressor, with ability:

None.

You die.

The end.

Stop grabbing the high ground of experience and casting us down as fools and people with cavalier attitudes.

You might as well do: defence against gun.

I train under people who have faced knives in the course of their day to day job.

Knives aren't funny, this forum is. Its a talking shop and you lot are too quick to cast judgement.

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 09-13-2003).]

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#95185 - 09/13/03 06:22 PM Re: Offensive Knife Technique
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
OK lay down and die then, for the rest what would you do? Ed

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#95186 - 09/13/03 07:15 PM Re: Offensive Knife Technique
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
My apologies, YS-- I wasn't grabbing the high ground of experience-- I will be the first to admit, and believe I stated in all caps in my previous post, that I know nothing.

Still, I was (and still am) claiming the moral high ground of not stooping to throwing pot shots at those who are trying to contribute. I think some of the "this is BS" and "you're an idiot" posts were not only not funny, but totally inappropriate. I'm all for the occasional joke, and even a good flaming on occasion, but it seems there are people here who only want to flame and offer little else. There are better places to do that than the self defense/street combat forum, IMHO.

I agree with your statement about knife defense for the most part-- if you are facing a determined attacker with ability and you are unarmed, you are in serious trouble. While I think your chance of surviving is astronomically low, my own stubborn mind won't let me say it's zero. If there is any conceivable way I can find to make it home, I am going to get there. I think your chances against a gun are also low, but at the range where knife fighting happens a gun is not necessarily more effective-- a knife works in any direction, never jams, doesn't run out of ammo, and does damage to whatever touches it. You can grab for the gun or gun arm-- grab a knifer's arm and you're most likely going to get shredded. Of course, from a couple of steps away the gun should always win.

Ed, moving on to the knife defense part, I think it's tough. I think your only chance is to do MAJOR damage to your attacker. Not knife defense, but totally committed OFFENSE. Unfortunately, legally (in a civilian context) you can't really do anything until there is a clear threat to your well being. Since the attacker in your technique doesn't show the blade until the attack is on, the defender is already one step behind.

I think the main thing is to cultivate awareness and be very sensitive to body positioning.

The defender should be thinking "There's a guy coming towards me, and I can't see his right hand." He should automatically adjust his own body position so he is outside the attacker's left arm, in his left front quadrant. This will make it harder for the attacker to connnect with whatever he has in his right hand.

Now he has maximum chance to see and react to the blade when it comes up. When that happens, it's got to be ON. There's not a defender any more-- there are two attackers engaged in combat. I am thinking check the blade arm whenever possible, and do as much damage as possible to whatever targets I can get at-- throat, knees, etc. I want to break things on my attacker, until he no longer functions.

I will be the first to admit that I don't have much confidence in my ability in this area. I am working on it, and I am finding out that all the joint locks and arm bars I have learned to apply to compliant opponents don't really fly when I fight with people who aren't programmed to respond in the "correct" way.

For me, awareness and body positioning are two things that can help. Use your environment, use any improvised weapons you may have at your disposal-- cane, umbrella, chair. Understand and become comfortable with your attacker's total commitment to violence-- and learn to cultivate enough of that in yourself to bring something to the table if the worst happens. Don't get involved in situations that you are not required to, and don't mess with strangers.

I can't claim authorship of any of this advice, but I am passing it on as it was passed to me. Take what you want and feel free to ignore the rest! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#95187 - 09/14/03 10:24 AM Re: Offensive Knife Technique
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
While everyone is busy apologising to Ed, I make none.

This section of the forum is titled Self defense/Street conbat.

Ed's technique is neither. It is an out and out offensive technique potentially used on the battlefield. (On the battlefield it would be considered over elaborate)

As a street technique it is an irresponsible suggestion at best. To carry the sort of knife shown is illegal. To conceal it and attck the jugular will get you 15-life. After slashing the jugular to then stab someone in the neck will see you with a needle in your arm.

This technique is not self defence and is not a commonly used offensive method that you can train against.

As such I believe ED is still perpetuating the macho myth he has created in his own mind and the easily influenced teenagers follow at significant risk.

JohnL

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#95188 - 09/14/03 11:10 AM Re: Offensive Knife Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


Have nothing to add as JohnL has beat me to it. I agree with him whole heartedly.
Sharon

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#95189 - 09/14/03 01:11 PM Re: Offensive Knife Technique
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Wadowwomen if I remember it is you that trained with real knives and got cut. What was your pourpose behind that? Do you think some gang member is going to cut you politely? Some of you train, slashing the wrist or slashing the body blah blah blah. And thats it. Why even train with knives? You are so far off on your training I feel sorry for you. Granted you probally will not see the hip throw from a thug. A criminal WILL slash and stab your neck, stab your groin and cetrainly grab and stab you. Your west side story type of attack is so far left field of what reality is, it still makes me laugh. People do not duel with knives. Well ok on TV. So why do you still train that way? So you do not like my technique, cool. But one, you haven't shown me anything and two, most of the knive attacks that you WILL face are grab and stabs. Tell me o wise ones, for the moment, emotions aside, how will defend against such an offensive attack? Do you know? Ed
PS O and john people have been attack with much larger knives than this,ie machettes, axes and K-bars so my knife is not so far fetch. Civilain have been killed by them plenty of times by ordinary people. They are legal.

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 09-14-2003).]

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#95190 - 09/14/03 02:00 PM Re: Offensive Knife Technique
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Do you think some gang member is going to cut you politely? Some of you train, slashing the wrist or slashing the body blah blah blah. And thats it. Why even train with knives? You are so far off on your training I feel sorry for you. [This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 09-14-2003).][/QUOTE]

No one said they train like this. No one said 'ah we only train slashes to the body and wrist because......' You haven't seen the people on the forum train.

In short you made this up.

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#95191 - 09/14/03 02:22 PM Re: Offensive Knife Technique
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Actually no, the people in this forum have discribed how they trained. And I have experienced the typical dojo MA senerios that they have discribed so I have a pretty good idea. I welcome anyone else's photos on training methods. Especially one's they think that they may encounter on the street. Ed

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#95192 - 09/15/03 08:17 AM Re: Offensive Knife Technique
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Ed

You start by saying that this is a demonstration of an offensive technique and have now switched to saying it's meant to make people think about how to defend against such a technique. Sorry Ed, I just don't believe you. You realised that as an offensive technique it was overkill and have backed off.

My opinion on the technique itself.

As an offensive technique;
I disagree with grabbing the arm first. It alerts the opponent to your motive and you lose the element of suprise you have tried to create. If I was using the knife, I'd consider the knee and throw parts as over elaborate. I'd just slash the front of the throat first on the forward stroke and the side of the neck on the backward. After that it may be assumed that the opponent has lifted his hands to his throat and you can then stab to the torso. (This is not advice to anyone!)

To defend against the technique;
If someone grabs you with one hand, make the assumption that the other contains a weapon. (If it doesn't, you're no worse off than when you started.)
Jerk your arm towards you and across your body. If it releases your arm, great, you've got some distance between yourself and the attacker, if it doesn't you're now on the outside of your opponents grabbing arm. While this isn't a defence, I'd rather be standing on the outside than directly facing the blade (or punch) in his other hand.

From there play it by ear, there's too many variables to be specific, but be aggressive.

As for your statement that your knife is legal. You're simply wrong. Certainly in the UK it's illegal. I also typed in "knife laws" on the net and the first 3 states I checked (NY, NJ, CT) also say knives of the type you are seen demonstrating with are illegal.

JohnL



[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 09-15-2003).]

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#95193 - 09/15/03 10:22 AM Re: Offensive Knife Technique
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
John thanks for your reply. No backpeddeling on my part, just wanted to get away from the bs statements. By now you know I could give two Shits about negative comments.
I have wittness four knife attacks in my life. Two military and two steet. The street attacks were all grab and stabs. The perp grabed the vitims arm, cross grab, and pulled to get his back. He then continued to stab the victim in the torso area.
The legality of the knive is debatable. If you can buy it at a store you can concider it legal. Of course if you conceal it and use it on someone it is illegal. Duh. But just owning one is not. Many of the blade attacks in NYC have been with large blades ie machette and kabar type knives. So your misinformed Ed

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