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#94865 - 08/12/03 03:17 PM More stuff on knives
Anonymous
Unregistered


At the weekend, during a training session with live knives, I received a not serious, but bad enough, cut to the hand.

Several people, on asking what happened and hearing the reply have expressed feelings of disbelief and horror that we were doing such a thing.

The way I see it is this:
Firstly, training with rubber/wooden knives is a great introduction to knife work. Training with marker pens also helps us to see where we would be cut.
However, despite much training at this, the first time my instructor put a real knife near me I literally froze in terror. Luckily, he was very focused and very experienced and stopped the attack short, so no harm done. After using live knives several times, I became less afraid (not unafraid) and did not freeze or back off. (I realise it could be different if it happened for real).

Secondly, when the accident happened, we had practised single attacks and then moved on to multiple slashes (so if you got the first block wrong, they continued attacking). I survived several times before I was cut, it was not fatal or even serious, and we analysed what went wrong and I tried again, this time more successfully, so it was a great learning experience.

I must also add that both myself and my partner are first aid trained, we carry a sensible first aid kit and a mobile phone.

What do you all think? Stupid or practical?

And does anyone else do this?
Sharon

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#94866 - 08/12/03 03:49 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Sharon, when I tell you this I am not being a ass, ok, but I do think it is very stupid and amaturistic, forgive my spelling, to train with live blades. Firstly your training sessions are never the same as real life combat. So much is different that I need an hour to explain. Accidents happen, people have different ability of control. Your lucky you only got slightly cut. We in the military do not train with lve blades. Yes our knives are cover with their sheaths or we use training aids, ie rubber knives. So if we do not, what make some civilian trainer the zen god in knive training. Trust me when I tell you, we get top training. And yes we train with civilian from time to time. But again the difference is that we realize that training is different from combat. Training your body's nueromuscular responses to attacks is all you need to do. This can be done slowly. In a real confrontation your mind and body will be as fast as they need to be, the muscle memory will be there. So the garbage that we have to train fast with real blades to better prepare ourselves to fight is pure BS. I would leave that school. Ed


[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 08-12-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 08-12-2003).]

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#94867 - 08/12/03 04:53 PM Re: More stuff on knives
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Good points raised by both.

When I trained as a Butcher, they encourage you to use Gauntlets. Soon you don't use them as you are confident enough. You learn very quickly not to make further mistakes.

I think the trainiing in live blades IN HIGHLY CONTROLLED CONDITIONS is a good idea, on the basis of Sharon's response to a real knife.

Obviously training in the same drills as you would with a dummy knife would be exremely dangerous, as Ed has pointed out.

On the whole, a good idea, IMO.

Budo.

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#94868 - 08/12/03 05:59 PM Re: More stuff on knives
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Its very much a toss up in my mind between a valuable experience and an unnecessary risk. A valuable experience because it highlights the ease at which one can be cut and the paucity of defence and can I suppose, sharpen the mind to the moment (on account of the blade being live) and add adrenalin into the training mix. An unnecessary risk because as Ed suggests it is impossible to safely recreate the reality of a frenzied knife attack with a live blade. If the attack is not realistic are you really getting the full value out of the training and is any success in training against a live blade used at less than its full potential a false confidence booster? In a way it can be argued that training against a dull or training blade is MORE beneficial because with safety constraints relaxed, the attack can be more realistic. With more realistic attacks, any success in defending oneself is a more realistic measure of your abilities. Just my two pence worth.

Regds
Mr V


[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 08-12-2003).]

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#94869 - 08/12/03 06:15 PM Re: More stuff on knives
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Hmmm...

I am going to have to say that training with a live blade is probably a bad idea, but not for the reason you might expect.

If you are training with a rubber knife or marking blade, your opponent has no reason to hold back-- he is free to try his hardest to cut or stab you. If he has a live blade, I think no matter how hard he tries he is always going to "pull" his attack so that you will not be badly hurt if your defense fails.

I think whatever good you derive from getting comfortable with the presence of a live blade is going to be overshadowed by the harm that is done by training in the absence of a violent, committed attack.

Your practice partner will not capitalize on an opportunity to shank you in the neck or kidney, but the street attacker will.

I think if you feel it is helping, then you are probably right-- but I would still toss someone a rubber knife every now and then and ask him or her to kill me with it.

I think the thing that freezes most people who are attacked on the street is the overwhelming violent intent of the atacker. It is something most of us never experience in the dojo.

Aside from that, I have trouble believing that we can escape many knife encounters without being cut (possibly seriously), and using a real blade would make it impossible to train for those. A wooden knife can be a little more realistic, but they can also do damage if you catch a stab from them...

I would never call you foolish for doing what you think you need to do to improve your training, but I would try to view it more as becoming comfortable with knives than as realistic defense training.

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#94870 - 08/12/03 11:10 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
In my opinion it would be good to do so to train against freezing up but as Mikey said its never going to be fully realistic in a dojo because there is always a degree of holding back. As for military being the best training, not hardly, especially that watered down jujutsu they try to teach. Sad but true. Also with a bladed weapon i would much rather learn from a dojo than a drill instructor or Seargent due to experience and understanding of Martial Arts ethics.

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#94871 - 08/12/03 11:28 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Another point is that when faced with a real blade attack, you have two options. Die or live. Not everyone picks to live. Your mindset, your most important asset is much different when surviving than in training when you know that you are going home.
I agree with chen, there is a lot of bad Jujutsu out there. But DIs do not teach knive fighting. Basic training is not the end all of your training. The guys who are true experts do not run dojos. They are hard to come by.
The way you keep from freezing is by having the right mindset. Attack what ever moves first and keep on attacking. Offense.
The hardest part of my training and the training I give is teaching that mindset. But once you have it ingrained you will not freeze under threat. Ed

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#94872 - 08/13/03 02:35 AM Re: More stuff on knives
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks to everyone for their replies.

I would just like to clarify a few things so that you all know I am not completely crazy:

The live blade was at my instigation, I was not forced to take part. My training partner was my husband who I trust 100 per cent.

I agree with those who said that conditions with a live blade must be controlled and with those who said you can not simulate real violence when using a live blade.

Most knife training is with rubber or wooden knives so that we can simulate frenzied aggresion. The live bade work is not done full power.
The cut to my hand is healing quicker than some strikes I have received training against attacks from a stick or a wooden knife. This is the first time I have been cut in training and because my partner was not using full power it is not at all serious.

Thanks again for your input, anyone else have an opinion on this?
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 08-13-2003).]

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#94873 - 08/14/03 11:24 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Its interesting how many aspects of training cannot be practiced at full power and agression but still work when needed. The key is being able to sort what can work from what most likely will not. Intricate patterns and multifaceted moves are often lost on the practitioner in the stress of confrontation and therefore do not work. Experience is a mysterious and cruel teacher. Personally I would say continue your training but be wary of moves that take more than a second to perform.

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#94874 - 08/15/03 01:49 AM Re: More stuff on knives
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Chen Chen are we in agreement? Do we train the same ? Maybe your not so bad. Ed

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#94875 - 08/15/03 03:30 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Maybe ED maybe. Ive had many confrontations here ED you aren't the first. I think maybe I dont always word my point as well as I should. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#94876 - 08/16/03 01:33 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Much of the debate is academic. In any training situation (rubber or real) you know the opponent has a knife. In the real world, most people who are fatally stabbed are hit before they ever see the blade, and have no idea that the attacker has one. Many who survive knife attacks say they thought they were being punched and only later realized that they had been stabbed. Training is good, but a most important aspect of it, which is often forgotten, is learning the telltale signs of someone armed with a blade before it is too late.

Sweeney

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#94877 - 08/16/03 04:51 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good point Sweeny.
Sharon

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#94878 - 08/16/03 09:10 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Good point on knowing the signs. I have to wonder about the whole seeing the blade thing however. I think most people dont see it because its an attack from behind. Ive been stabbed once and sliced once and both times I saw the blade but simply wasn't fast enough to evade it. Also if you dont see the blade then the assailant doesnt have it out yet and you can see someone pull a knife out of the pocket or waistband and thats why I think most unseen knife attacks either come from behind or the victim is already on the losing end of the fight either being hit repeatedly and cant see, hit and the nose and cant see, or are on the ground.

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#94879 - 08/16/03 10:17 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
...Also if you dont see the blade then the assailant doesnt have it out yet and you can see someone pull a knife out of the pocket or waistband...[/QUOTE]

Actually, there are some pretty well-developed techniques for keeping a rather long knife completely out of sight in a hand that appears to be empty. It's hard to describe in text, but imagine the hand hanging down, with the thumb keeping the handle against the palm and the blade up and hidden by the forearm. That's just one possibility for a "hidden frontal approach." There are others. But you're right: many attacks come from behind, and it's hard to see those coming (by definition).

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#94880 - 08/17/03 08:22 AM Re: More stuff on knives
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Also remember the effects of adrenaline. This tends to tunnel the vision, thus the strike is hardly noticed.

At to this the number methods of concealing a knife, plus the fact it takes less than 1 second to withdraw a concealed knife and strike the target.

Not pretty.

Budo.

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#94881 - 08/17/03 01:33 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I can understand the concealment methods but I think it would take a little longer than a single second to remove a knife from your pocket. At least for a untrained assailant. You have the resistance of the pocket, anything in the pocket to fumble over and you still have to get the blade open as well.

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#94882 - 08/17/03 08:45 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
I can understand the concealment methods but I think it would take a little longer than a single second to remove a knife from your pocket. At least for a untrained assailant. You have the resistance of the pocket, anything in the pocket to fumble over and you still have to get the blade open as well.[/QUOTE]

A Spyderco Clip-it folding knife sits in pocket with a clip holding it in position at the edge of the pocket opening ready to grasp. The knife also has an "eye" hole so that it can be opened from its folded (closed) position with the thumb of one hand. From closed in the pocket to open in the hand takes less than 0.4 sec. I know. I've tried.

Then there are sheath knives. Let's say one guy pulls a Spyderco in less than half a second, then the other guy pulls out his big sheath knife in even less time and says, "That's not a knife. This is a knife!" Preferably with an Australian accent...

And then some fool walks up with a Balisong and while he's flipping it around from closed to open the other two cut him up into hamburger!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#94883 - 08/18/03 10:19 AM Re: More stuff on knives
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Maby mix it up a little
send someone in to spar
maby with a weapon, maby without
the only one who knows is the instructor and the one "armed"then let them pull the weapon when they feel like it not at a predertimined time

police here train to recognize weather people are carring a weapon or weather it's just a cell phone or some other harmless object

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#94884 - 08/18/03 02:11 PM Re: More stuff on knives
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Thanks to everyone for their replies.

I would just like to clarify a few things so that you all know I am not completely crazy:

The live blade was at my instigation, I was not forced to take part. My training partner was my husband who I trust 100 per cent.

I agree with those who said that conditions with a live blade must be controlled and with those who said you can not simulate real violence when using a live blade.

Most knife training is with rubber or wooden knives so that we can simulate frenzied aggresion. The live bade work is not done full power.
The cut to my hand is healing quicker than some strikes I have received training against attacks from a stick or a wooden knife. This is the first time I have been cut in training and because my partner was not using full power it is not at all serious.

Thanks again for your input, anyone else have an opinion on this?
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 08-13-2003).]
[/QUOTE]

LOL. I must admit I wondered what in blazes was going on in your dojo when I read your original post. Your second post made things clearer.
You've had plenty of good feedback as to the pros and cons of training that way, so I won't get into that. As to the sanity issue: Apart from the "mad dogs and Englishmen" factor, I believe judansha SHOULD push the envelope somewhat. It's one way of discovering what works for you, and you are at a level of training where you have the wherewithal to do a correct analysis of the results. Given what you describe of the way you went about it, it makes sense (From the point of view of dedicated Budoka. "Civilians" would be horrified! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]). You DID learn some valuable lessons. Whether you want to repeat the experience, though...

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#94885 - 08/18/03 02:31 PM Re: More stuff on knives
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
I can understand the concealment methods but I think it would take a little longer than a single second to remove a knife from your pocket. At least for a untrained assailant. You have the resistance of the pocket, anything in the pocket to fumble over and you still have to get the blade open as well.[/QUOTE]

Remember that if an assailent, trained or not, is intent on using a blade, or is considering it, they will already have it "to hand" as it were.

A small lock knife is easy to conceal in the hand and open quickly with the thumb. How long would it take you to raise your hand from your leg and punch someone? Same principle.

Budo.

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#94886 - 08/18/03 09:58 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
This is true but we have to remember that we train for this. Many of you who carry knives (I dont) have practiced pulling it out and openening it many times Im sure. Most thugs, thieves and robbers dont have this type of dedication to their craft. Most men dont unless they are MA or Military or police. I have and I dont carry one I just collect. I practice with a sword too but it will probably never take someones head off. While i can see the merits of carrying a weapon and training with onee I think that the cons out weigh the pros and that often a overdependence is assoiciated with carrying these things.

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#94887 - 08/19/03 05:39 PM Re: More stuff on knives
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Most thugs, thieves and robbers dont have this type of dedication to their craft.[/QUOTE]

I would tend to disagree.

[QUOTE] While i can see the merits of carrying a weapon and training with onee I think that the cons out weigh the pros and that often a overdependence is assoiciated with carrying these things.[/QUOTE]

This I agree with.

Budo.

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#94888 - 08/19/03 05:47 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
One out of two aint bad [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] I just dont see the average common criminal practicing knife techniques as much or as effectively as a MA would.

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#94889 - 08/20/03 10:03 AM Re: More stuff on knives
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
[B}...I just dont see the average common criminal practicing knife techniques as much or as effectively as a MA would.[/QUOTE]

You're probably right, but some DO practice to an extent. Particularly misdirection.

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#94890 - 08/20/03 02:05 PM Re: More stuff on knives
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Chen: Went net- surfing elsewhere after that last post (It's a slow day at work. Can't you tell?) and, wouldn't you know it, I found this. It's supposed to have been written by a Crip awaiting trial at the L.A. County jail:
"By afternoon, we would wrestle and box each other to keep our skills up and teach each other techniques. Sometimes the white
deputies would let out two cells at a time to thunderdome and bet on the fights. If you were constantly not up to the task or showed
weakness, you were either beat up badly or told to pack up your belongings and notify the deputies that you were no longer safe in
the gang module and in fear for your life! The more institionalized guys usually did callistetics inside the cells to keep in shape and to keep from losing their size."



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 08-20-2003).]

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#94891 - 08/24/03 10:31 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Interesting. I wonder if this is the case with non-institutionalized criminals.

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#94892 - 08/26/03 08:37 AM Re: More stuff on knives
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Interesting. I wonder if this is the case with non-institutionalized criminals. [/QUOTE]

Notice the guy's saying "to keep our skills UP". That seems to imply that training of some sort was going on before being jailed.
That said, I seriously doubt it's as structured, ongoing or complete as what takes place in a good MA school. But it doesn't pay to underestimate the potential opponent.


[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 08-26-2003).]

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#94893 - 08/28/03 10:55 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Duely noted. However giving an opponent too much credit can cause undue fear, hesitation, and second guessing on your part and is also not good. You can tell alot about your opponent by their stance, hand placement, the first strike that they throw, the way the move their feet, facial expression, and so much more that these things have to be looked at and given a split second analysis to to assess the skill or possible skill of the opponent.

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#94894 - 08/29/03 02:47 AM Re: More stuff on knives
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Do you really take the time to "analysis" your attacker. What B.S.. Sounds like you are fighting some sport. That's what I do not like about most martial arts and instruction. B.S. stances, ranging ect. If you fight, just attack the guy and get it over with! ED

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#94895 - 08/29/03 08:57 AM Re: More stuff on knives
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Do you really take the time to "analysis" your attacker. What B.S.. Sounds like you are fighting some sport.ED[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I do. Then again, it doesn't take me an hour to do so. Some of us are swifter than others. If YOU can't, it doesn't make it B.S.



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 08-29-2003).]

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#94896 - 08/29/03 09:09 AM Re: More stuff on knives
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Duely noted. However giving an opponent too much credit can cause undue fear, hesitation, and second guessing on your part and is also not good. You can tell alot about your opponent by their stance, hand placement, the first strike that they throw, the way the move their feet, facial expression, and so much more that these things have to be looked at and given a split second analysis to to assess the skill or possible skill of the opponent.[/QUOTE]

True, that's the other side of the coin.
By the way, I thought you were out of Memphis. Where in Fla. are you?

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#94897 - 08/29/03 09:38 AM Re: More stuff on knives
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
If you fight, just attack the guy and get it over with! ED[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a good method of getting your ass whupped Ed.
I agree that once the action starts you need to be decisive but, just attack and get it over with I do not believe to be good advice.

Sounds like you're a relative of Custer with your gung ho tactics.

"Come on, lets attack those indians, there's only a few of them! Oops [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] "

JohnL

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#94898 - 08/29/03 10:15 AM Re: More stuff on knives
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Not rushing in foolishly is particularly important when considering the possibility that the opponent may have an edged weapon (i.e., knife). Most fatal stabbings occur in close quarters, where the stabbee had no idea the stabber had a knife until it was too late...

Incidentally, a bullet-proof vest will protect against knives. When I worked as a paramedic many of my colleagues wore them, more for that reason than to protect against being shot, although I personally found them uncomfortable and opted out.

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#94899 - 08/30/03 04:06 AM Re: More stuff on knives
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Not all vests stop knives. But that is the main reason I focus on groin and throat in my offensive knife tech.
Once again, preaching to the cub scouts,if you had any real experience you wouldn't be pondering needlessly about this that and the other thing. If you are in a situation you best attack the attacker. Analysing his moves will get you hurt. If you attack him you are forcing him to move the way you want. That is the best method of controling and ending the conflict. Press the attacker and put him on the defense. If you take the time to check out his stance, his jabs...what ever...you are allowing him to attack you. Stupid move. So what if he has a knife. Ok... I will stand 10 feet away..check out his X pattern BS knive move and decide on my plan of attack. How silly is that shit. If you attack someone properly, it dosen't matter if he has a knife. You are taking him out. You all worry too much about the tool. Take out the brain.
Oh if I was with Custard, I would bring the mini guns! Ed

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#94900 - 08/30/03 04:08 AM Re: More stuff on knives
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
...

[This message has been edited by Doughnut (edited 08-30-2003).]

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#94901 - 08/30/03 04:12 AM Re: More stuff on knives
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Not all vests stop knives. But that is the main reason I focus on groin and throat in my offensive knife tech.
Once again, preaching to the cub scouts,if you had any real experience you wouldn't be pondering needlessly about this that and the other thing. If you are in a situation you best attack the attacker. Analysing his moves will get you hurt. If you attack him you are forcing him to move the way you want. That is the best method of controling and ending the conflict. Press the attacker and put him on the defense. If you take the time to check out his stance, his jabs...what ever...you are allowing him to attack you. Stupid move. So what if he has a knife. Ok... I will stand 10 feet away..check out his X pattern BS knive move and decide on my plan of attack. How silly is that shit. If you attack someone properly, it dosen't matter if he has a knife. You are taking him out. You all worry too much about the tool. Take out the brain.
Oh if I was with Custard, I would bring the mini guns! Ed

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#94902 - 08/30/03 04:18 AM Re: More stuff on knives
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
QUOTE: "Most Theives and robbers dont have this type of dedication to their craft. Most men dont unless they are MA or Military or police."

FACT:
Bad guys go to Dojos' Dojangs' etc.too. Bad guys Box and train and hone their crafts. Institutions ARE training grounds for these people as has already been noted.

FURTHERMORE Crooks set you up in traps. IE an "unconcious" guy on your Apt stoop who as you approch to help swings around and punches... or cuts you repeatedly.
ALSO Preditory crooks look for weakness IE intoxication, illness, looking lost, full hands, diverted attention etc.

TRUE they may not practice with knives daily, also their are varying degrees of "proffesionalism" (SP?) among crooks, but...

MORE TO THE POINT your average bad guy has been in more fights, has beat up and been beat up more than your average MA, Soldier, Cop, Minister or Sailor. The ONE Thing More Powerful than training is REAL EXPERIANCE.

SO I am unconvinced that training with live knives add to training and may be dangerous without bennifet

[This message has been edited by Doughnut (edited 08-30-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Doughnut (edited 08-30-2003).]

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#94903 - 09/08/03 12:49 AM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Well, I look away for a few days and look at all this mess. MAgon, Im now in Pensacola. I travel frequently and may be moving to panama city soon. Ed,Ed, Ed, what are we going to do with you? Dont look just attack? I think someone mentioned knives and weapons so I wont waste time with that, but, there is a saying, I believe its "fools rush in" something like that? It was said for a reason Ed. Being too eager has dire consequences. As for analyzing the opponent this is done in fractions of a second, often before the first attack is thrown from either fighter, and given enough real experience, becomes a quick easy and valuable thing. As for thugs with weapons training, Ive yet to come across this type of thug. Doing such thuggish things as, group beat downs, drive by's, robbings rapes and murders where does one find the time to train as dilligently as a MAist? Only in the pen and if they are training in the pen, and Im not in the pen, then its not a worry to me.

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#94904 - 09/08/03 07:59 AM Re: More stuff on knives
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
...MAgon, Im now in Pensacola. I travel frequently and may be moving to panama city soon... [/QUOTE]

If you make your way down to Miami, holler at me.
BTW, as for the rest of your post, I agree, mostly. It's just that I think it pays to bear in mind that cons DO get realeased.



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 09-08-2003).]

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#94905 - 09/09/03 02:03 AM Re: More stuff on knives
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Chen Chen sorry but the human body dosn't react the way you might think. You can not react, analyse ,formulate and respond in a fraction of a second. Sorry pal, impossible. Your nervous system does but not you brain. You are way to analytical in your style of MA. Most people, including you get " deer in the headlight" Sydrome and freeze when attacked. Your split second theroy is BS. Ed

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#94906 - 09/09/03 06:57 AM Re: More stuff on knives
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
So you don't train to react ed? I find this difficult to beleive.

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#94907 - 09/09/03 02:46 PM Re: More stuff on knives
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
as far as "training" in the penenatentary
or "pen" ,
well unless thier name is Manson
they are useually released at some point.

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#94908 - 09/09/03 02:53 PM Re: More stuff on knives
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Chen Chen sorry but the human body dosn't react the way you might think. You can not react, analyse ,formulate and respond in a fraction of a second. Sorry pal, impossible. Your nervous system does but not you brain. You are way to analytical in your style of MA. Most people, including you get " deer in the headlight" Sydrome and freeze when attacked. Your split second theroy is BS. Ed[/QUOTE]

Ooops!! Guess the times I've done it were a fantasy, and I'm dead on the side of the road somewhere!!

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#94909 - 09/09/03 08:18 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Magon, Will do.
Ed, surely a sensei and military man could analyze whether an opponent is trained or not. Perhaps your senses have been dulled by old age. How can you say I freeze up in the face of attack? Have you ever attacked me? If so then surely you would know that while I will not hesitate I also will not run in head first guns blazing. Remember the saying "Fools rush in". The sort of analyzing I speak of takes mere fractions of a second often before the attack is launched from either myself or my opponent.

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#94910 - 09/18/03 01:47 PM Re: More stuff on knives
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
ED,,it's CUSTER not Custard ! Are you in the Air Force or something? General George Armstrong CUSTER! Held the right flank in distingued cavalry action at Gettysburg. Anihilated at Little Bighorn. You make military people look bad when you screw up something easy like that.

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#94911 - 09/20/03 06:38 AM Re: More stuff on knives
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
sorry for the spelling! Ed By the way I was in the first cav div. so I am very familiar with the history. Ed

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