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#94854 - 08/18/03 12:27 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
An example of this is:
when 2 football teams(english or american)
Compete, they usually watch films of the opposing team to find strengths and weaknesses.
or boxers do the same thing.
My idea is :"why not apply that to street fighting?"
there are what I'd call serious misconceptions about why an attacker will choose you as a victim or how to diffuse an escelating situation
thoughts?

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#94855 - 08/18/03 01:21 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
madhag Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 150
Loc: Seattle, WA
i'd be very careful with a knife up against my jugular, assuming that he would kill me. which i why i would not be so quick to react in this scenario as others. sometimes we have to bide time. i can pretend to be frightened and helples, he would assume i'm weak, and his ego feeling pretty big from frightening a poor little woman. he would start to let down his guard, at some point, his knife has to be at a less advantageous position to maneuver me. i have to be extremely aware for that brief window opportunity to pounce back and escape. but the sooner to escape the better.
in the meantime i'll do my best to avoid getting into that situation.

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#94856 - 08/18/03 01:24 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChangLab:
I personally think that to effectivly defend against a criminal you'd want to think like one.(or atleast have some idea of what they might be thinking) maby theres a way to find a criminal that's incarcerated, "found god", and is willing to talk about why they were caught.
Granted theorizing is great, but why not get it from the horses mouth.

As with the passivity till you get to the threshold of "his" enviornment, I would think that an "experienced" psycho would expect some resistance at this point.

I'm not suggesting you go make buddies with the nearest criminal you can find, but you could look up prisoners on the internet, write letters and see if one of them has begun the repenting process and is willing to discuss thier experiences with you and maby you can find some common weaknessess.


just a thought........
[/QUOTE]

Good idea, but there's an easier way. It just so happens that the FBI's Behavioral Sciences Unit did exactly what you suggest. Some of these guys have published books on their experiences after they retired from the Bureau. They're fascinating (In a sick way). There's only so much of this stuff I can stomach, so I can't claim to have read them all. I DID read 3 co- written by John Douglas, one of the pioneers of the unit. His focus seems to be PRECISELY what John Q. Public should beware of as regards these predators.
BTW, one of the things I took away from the books is that, since it's a power/ control need these individuals have, meek compliance strokes their egos. It would seem that they'd be less vigilant in that state. It isn't an exact science, but I'd opt for mock compliance as a general strategy. The one thing I WOULDN't do is enter their environment. Many prepare to the point of having a rape/ torture "kit" ready in advance, complete with means of restraint.



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 08-18-2003).]

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#94857 - 08/18/03 02:33 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChangLab:
there are what I'd call serious misconceptions about why an attacker will choose you as a victim or how to diffuse an escelating situation
thoughts?

[/QUOTE]

I'd like to hear what misconceptions you know of and what things we should be looking for or indeed, what criminals look for.

Budo.

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#94858 - 08/18/03 02:38 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
The one thing I WOULDN't do is enter their environment. Many prepare to the point of having a rape/ torture "kit" prepared in advance, complete with means of restraint.

[/QUOTE]

Good point. But one of the major problems is that the criminal doesn't necassarily have an "environment". There are very few that wait around in their own areas. You will find them prowling in amongst their prey or waiting for the right one to come along.

Is there a site with these FBI insights on them?

Budo.

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#94859 - 08/18/03 03:41 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
szorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
In real self-defense the tactics should be simple and easily applied, don't attempt anything that seems too complex for such a situation.

Scenario #1- the hand is free so use it to grab the groin, gouge at the eyes, or something just as vicious (possible back elbow to head and neck) while stomping his feet and thrusting you hips backward into his hips to disrupt his balance. The back headbutt can also be effective but be extremely careful not to knock yourself out. Once you feel his grip weaken you might attempt to grab and dislocate fingers as you move to separate yourself from the attacker.

Scenario #2- same as above but now the hands are pinned. Focus on trying to get the hands behind you to grab the groin while using foot stomps and hips thrust to break the balance. Follow up as in scenario #1.

Scenarios #3- as he attempts to choke you try to drop your chin into your chest. This will provide a block between your throat and his forearm. While doing this grab his arm and pull downward with both hands as you stomp on his feet (violently) and thrust your hips backwards. If you get an exposed finger during the struggle attempt to dislocate it. As in scenario #1 attempt to escape as soon as you feel the opportunity.

Scenario #4- Same as scenario #3 except maintain the grab on the arm and pin it to your chest to prevent the knife from cutting your throat. If secured properly the attacker will momentarily be unable to cut the throat which provides a split second to viciously stomp and hip thrust as before. Maintain your grip on the knife arm as you attempt to turn and face the attacker so that you can viciously knee toward his groin, bladder, and upper legs. Do not let go of the knife limb til the attacker has dropped the knife or is disabled. Once either of these takes place, escape to safety.

I agree that dropping the body weight may work but if the atacker happens to be stronger than you he will just carry you off or slam you into a tree, wall, or other nearby object. The hip thrust works a little more effectively because it physically moves the attackers hips and disrupts his balance plus causes impact to the bladder/groin area which can cause minor pain and discomfort.

Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives

[This message has been edited by szorn (edited 08-18-2003).]

[This message has been edited by szorn (edited 08-18-2003).]

[This message has been edited by szorn (edited 08-18-2003).]

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#94860 - 08/21/03 04:17 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
So what would an attacker look for in a potential victim?

What are the rules for de-esculation?

Budo.

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#94861 - 08/22/03 09:55 AM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
szorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
So what would an attacker look for in a potential victim?

What are the rules for de-esculation?

Budo.
[/QUOTE]

An attacker looks for easy prey, simple as that. They look for weaknesses in the attitude, body language, etc. As examples of easy prey: looking at the ground while walking (not paying attention to the world around them), walking slowly and hunched over at the shoulders (as though depressed), looking around bewildered as though lost or in a new environment (commonly seen in tourists), walking alone in secluded areas, flashing large amounts of money when shopping, etc. etc. The list could go on and on but this gives you an idea of what attackers look for. The simple solution- don't act like a victim, don't think like a victim, don't look like a victim.

There aren't rules for de-escalation per se. The simple solution to de-escalation is to avoid the situations in the first place. This can be done by understanding what attackers look for and making sure you don't fit the profile. Even with all the preparation in the world you can still find yourself in a bad situation. At that point the best solution is to escape. If that doesn't work then move on to verbal and psychological de-escalation tactics. These are used for one of two reasons, 1) to netralize the situtaion by getting the attacker to back off or 2) to get the attacker to drop his psycholgical guard so that you can pre-emptively attack and escape.

Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives

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#94862 - 08/22/03 07:59 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
szorn, what type of car is that on your homepage, I am bit of a car enthusiast, and it looks very similar to a Australian Holden-GM VL-Commodore, due to the shape of the side skirts.

Off topic, but hey, I looked at your site.

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#94863 - 08/25/03 09:55 AM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
szorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
szorn, what type of car is that on your homepage, I am bit of a car enthusiast, and it looks very similar to a Australian Holden-GM VL-Commodore, due to the shape of the side skirts.

Off topic, but hey, I looked at your site.
[/QUOTE]


LOL, I guess any discussion is better than none. That is a Pontiac Grand Prix.

Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives

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