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#94844 - 08/11/03 11:31 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
Tengu51 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 361
Loc: Ellicott, MD, USA
Hello. I'm new but I once saw a great defense for a rear grab with your hands free...First sink your weight to keep balance, then turn into a rear elbow to the head, if there isn't enough space to strike you can still push the head back to unbalance. As the attacker is knocked back, step around behind both of his legs, usually at this point the attacker is worried so much about his balance that he has let go, leaving him belly up and his groin wide open.

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#94845 - 08/12/03 02:31 AM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
Anonymous
Unregistered


Magon and Madhag,

I can see why you say you would go with him and look for an opportunity to escape, such as when he changes his grip, it seems to make sense doesn't it.

However a policewoman I know who does self defence for women holds the opinion that going anywhere with an attacker is the last thing we should do.

She says it is better to be cut in the street where there is a slim chance of rescue/discovery than be taken somewhere and suffer untold horrors for days or weeks or even months and then be killed anyway. She and her colleagues have dealt with many cases like this, usually sexual and control freak orientated.
I posted a thread about this on these boards and many people here agreed that we should not comply in this way.

Assuming we accept this advice, what now? How can we at least minimise our injuries so there is a chance of at least being alive when we are discovered? Or can't we?

If a student asked me this question, I would have to say I honestly don't know what would be the best thing to do.


Welcome to Tengus.
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 08-12-2003).]

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#94846 - 08/12/03 09:15 AM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Sharon: Yes, in fact what you relate seems to be standard advice from police for that type of scenario. But it leaves me with the impression that they're thinking about the "least common denominator", the untrained person. In that case, resisting in place is probably the best of a bad situation. I was thinking more along the lines of YOURSELF, someone who has trained to fight, and is willing to resist. In that case I THINK (I can't offer concrete examples, nor can I cite from practical experience, so take it with a grain of salt) that mock compliance buys you time for the situation to improve. This either by the attacker making a mistake, or by you coming up with a viable strategy.
I would also THINK that mock compliance shouldn't be open ended. It has to stop fairly soon. For me, I think the point of no return is when the attacker is about to get me into HIS environment (Such as his vehicle or the site he's chosen for whatever is on his mind). Not incidentally, that's the point where an opening is probable, since he'll have to manipulate stuff around.
If you feel like it, run this by your LEO sources. I'd be interested in their feedback, since I admit I'm speculating.

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 08-12-2003).]

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#94847 - 08/12/03 09:21 AM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Sharon: Yes, in fact what you relate seems to be standard advice from police for that type of scenario. But it leaves me with the impression that they're thinking about the "least common denominator", the untrained person. In that case, resisting in place is probably the best of a bad situation. I was thinking more along the lines of YOURSELF, someone who has trained to fight, and is willing to resist. In that case I THINK (I can't offer concrete examples, nor can I cite from practical experience, so take it with MORE than a grain of salt) that mock compliance buys you time for the situation to improve. This either by the attacker making a mistake, or by you coming up with a viable strategy.
I would also THINK that mock compliance shouldn't be open ended. It has to stop fairly soon. For me, I think the point of no return is when the attacker is about to get me into HIS environment (Such as his vehicle or the site he's chosen for whatever is on his mind). Not incidentally, that's the point where an opening is probable, since he'll have to manipulate stuff around.
If you feel like it, run this by your LEO sources. I'd be interested in their feedback, since I admit I'm speculating.

P.S.: Beyond that, LIKE YOU, if I was asked how to deal with this type of attack, I'd also have to say that I DON'T KNOW! I suspect John Kogas' analysis was, as usual, on the money: Nice knowing ya!!!



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 08-12-2003).]

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#94848 - 08/12/03 02:08 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
Anonymous
Unregistered


Magon,
I believe you are spot on with the mock compliance, and we practice this in training.
I also believe you are right about this compliance not being open ended.

Thanks for your input
Sharon

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#94849 - 08/12/03 02:59 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Magon,
I believe you are spot on with the mock compliance, and we practice this in training.
I also believe you are right about this compliance not being open ended.

Thanks for your input
Sharon
[/QUOTE]

Sharon: You're welcome.
I'd still be curious to know what your woman LEO/ self defense instructor thinks. Any chance of that?

Cheers.

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#94850 - 08/12/03 05:33 PM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
In all these scenarios we can assume that the attackers intentions are NOT playful?

"The first, a guy grabs you from behind round the waist and you have at least one arm free."

Drop weight. Either rip the grip apart by bending/breaking fingers. Applying a thumb or wrist lock to release grip.

Once grip is weakened/removed, twist free. Strike or move away.

"The second, you are grabbed from behind in the same manner but both arms are trapped."

I've never been sure about the "Stamp & Scrape" ideas we were shown at work. Drop your weight. Break grip by damaging fingers. Reverse headbutt.

"The third as you are grabbed his forearm is across your throat and crushing it"

Grab restraining arm with both yours. Pulling the arm in and down. The idea is that you are using more muscles than the attacker. You should be able to relieve some of the pressure on your throat.

Twist outwards (in same direction as elbow) simultaneously continue with further strikes to areas of choice.

Not being a grappler, I wonder if would be possible to perform a throw from this position? Theoretically your opponents weight should be forward. Any thoughts?

Another is to fient a strike to the face, same side as elbow, allowing your other arm to extend forward. Drive with your hips with an elbow strike. Don't forget to extend the first arm again, coz its going to come back as hard as the first elbow strike. Repeat as necassary.

These two I have used to great effect (and surprise). I am unsure about the effects against particularly well built or fat opponents.

"The fourth as above but he also has a knife at your throat"

Similar to as above. Much more dangerous, never tried it, but my theory is your grip should be sufficient to reduce the risk being cut, unless the knife is pointy end in that is. Then I'm with JK.

As with all of these, as has been suggested, distraction and disguise will go a long way to loosen grips and lower awareness of an opponent. All attacks must be explosive.

Budo.

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#94851 - 08/18/03 01:31 AM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
Sharon: You're welcome.
I'd still be curious to know what your woman LEO/ self defense instructor thinks. Any chance of that?

Cheers.

[/QUOTE]

Magon,
I spoke to two of my students about this, one a policeman and the other an ex policewoman.
Both agreed that mock compliance could buy some time, but as you suggested this mock compliance needs to end soon, within a few seconds if possible (before you find yourself in a car or a dissused building etc).
Sharon

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#94852 - 08/18/03 10:13 AM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I personally think that to effectivly defend against a criminal you'd want to think like one.(or atleast have some idea of what they might be thinking) maby theres a way to find a criminal that's incarcerated, "found god", and is willing to talk about why they were caught.
Granted theorizing is great, but why not get it from the horses mouth.

As with the passivity till you get to the threshold of "his" enviornment, I would think that an "experienced" psycho would expect some resistance at this point.

I'm not suggesting you go make buddies with the nearest criminal you can find, but you could look up prisoners on the internet, write letters and see if one of them has begun the repenting process and is willing to discuss thier experiences with you and maby you can find some common weaknessess.


just a thought........

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#94853 - 08/18/03 11:45 AM Re: Escaping from a grab from behind
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
We practice defenses from these positions all the time in my aikido dojo. If you have the option I'd talk to an aikido sensei in your area. If you explain your concerns with an emphasis on self defense I'm sure she could show you some aikido tactics, some more easily learnt than others.

Joe

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