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#94387 - 08/15/03 03:30 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Maybe ED maybe. Ive had many confrontations here ED you aren't the first. I think maybe I dont always word my point as well as I should. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#94388 - 08/16/03 01:33 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Much of the debate is academic. In any training situation (rubber or real) you know the opponent has a knife. In the real world, most people who are fatally stabbed are hit before they ever see the blade, and have no idea that the attacker has one. Many who survive knife attacks say they thought they were being punched and only later realized that they had been stabbed. Training is good, but a most important aspect of it, which is often forgotten, is learning the telltale signs of someone armed with a blade before it is too late.

Sweeney

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#94389 - 08/16/03 04:51 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good point Sweeny.
Sharon

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#94390 - 08/16/03 09:10 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Good point on knowing the signs. I have to wonder about the whole seeing the blade thing however. I think most people dont see it because its an attack from behind. Ive been stabbed once and sliced once and both times I saw the blade but simply wasn't fast enough to evade it. Also if you dont see the blade then the assailant doesnt have it out yet and you can see someone pull a knife out of the pocket or waistband and thats why I think most unseen knife attacks either come from behind or the victim is already on the losing end of the fight either being hit repeatedly and cant see, hit and the nose and cant see, or are on the ground.

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#94391 - 08/16/03 10:17 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
...Also if you dont see the blade then the assailant doesnt have it out yet and you can see someone pull a knife out of the pocket or waistband...[/QUOTE]

Actually, there are some pretty well-developed techniques for keeping a rather long knife completely out of sight in a hand that appears to be empty. It's hard to describe in text, but imagine the hand hanging down, with the thumb keeping the handle against the palm and the blade up and hidden by the forearm. That's just one possibility for a "hidden frontal approach." There are others. But you're right: many attacks come from behind, and it's hard to see those coming (by definition).

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#94392 - 08/17/03 08:22 AM Re: More stuff on knives
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Also remember the effects of adrenaline. This tends to tunnel the vision, thus the strike is hardly noticed.

At to this the number methods of concealing a knife, plus the fact it takes less than 1 second to withdraw a concealed knife and strike the target.

Not pretty.

Budo.

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#94393 - 08/17/03 01:33 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I can understand the concealment methods but I think it would take a little longer than a single second to remove a knife from your pocket. At least for a untrained assailant. You have the resistance of the pocket, anything in the pocket to fumble over and you still have to get the blade open as well.

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#94394 - 08/17/03 08:45 PM Re: More stuff on knives
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
I can understand the concealment methods but I think it would take a little longer than a single second to remove a knife from your pocket. At least for a untrained assailant. You have the resistance of the pocket, anything in the pocket to fumble over and you still have to get the blade open as well.[/QUOTE]

A Spyderco Clip-it folding knife sits in pocket with a clip holding it in position at the edge of the pocket opening ready to grasp. The knife also has an "eye" hole so that it can be opened from its folded (closed) position with the thumb of one hand. From closed in the pocket to open in the hand takes less than 0.4 sec. I know. I've tried.

Then there are sheath knives. Let's say one guy pulls a Spyderco in less than half a second, then the other guy pulls out his big sheath knife in even less time and says, "That's not a knife. This is a knife!" Preferably with an Australian accent...

And then some fool walks up with a Balisong and while he's flipping it around from closed to open the other two cut him up into hamburger!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#94395 - 08/18/03 10:19 AM Re: More stuff on knives
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Maby mix it up a little
send someone in to spar
maby with a weapon, maby without
the only one who knows is the instructor and the one "armed"then let them pull the weapon when they feel like it not at a predertimined time

police here train to recognize weather people are carring a weapon or weather it's just a cell phone or some other harmless object

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#94396 - 08/18/03 02:11 PM Re: More stuff on knives
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Thanks to everyone for their replies.

I would just like to clarify a few things so that you all know I am not completely crazy:

The live blade was at my instigation, I was not forced to take part. My training partner was my husband who I trust 100 per cent.

I agree with those who said that conditions with a live blade must be controlled and with those who said you can not simulate real violence when using a live blade.

Most knife training is with rubber or wooden knives so that we can simulate frenzied aggresion. The live bade work is not done full power.
The cut to my hand is healing quicker than some strikes I have received training against attacks from a stick or a wooden knife. This is the first time I have been cut in training and because my partner was not using full power it is not at all serious.

Thanks again for your input, anyone else have an opinion on this?
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 08-13-2003).]
[/QUOTE]

LOL. I must admit I wondered what in blazes was going on in your dojo when I read your original post. Your second post made things clearer.
You've had plenty of good feedback as to the pros and cons of training that way, so I won't get into that. As to the sanity issue: Apart from the "mad dogs and Englishmen" factor, I believe judansha SHOULD push the envelope somewhat. It's one way of discovering what works for you, and you are at a level of training where you have the wherewithal to do a correct analysis of the results. Given what you describe of the way you went about it, it makes sense (From the point of view of dedicated Budoka. "Civilians" would be horrified! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]). You DID learn some valuable lessons. Whether you want to repeat the experience, though...

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