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#94171 - 07/25/03 05:15 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
It's basically a shoulder throw...
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm

The example in this link is not exactly the same thing, but it will give you an idea. So in seionage, you would grab the opponents arm with both hands on either side of his elbow, pull it down a bit, and then throw him over your shoulder. As Ed said above, this would be tough to do for most people, and failure to get the throw would result in your getting choked out.

The modifaction I proposed is to step out around your attacker with your right foot first (Ed refeerred to this as bringing your hips around, but in his suggestion you stay facing forward with the attacker beside you and in my suggestion you turn to your rear as you step), and then throw him with a body turn and possibly a sweep. It's hard to visualize, but you can try it with a partner and muddle through it some...

When you say defense against a strangle what kind of strangle do you mean? If you can describe a specific attack I'm sure everyone will chime in with ideas.

Hope this helps...

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#94172 - 07/27/03 07:24 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Thanks for the clarification.

Ok a specific strangle.

You find yourself, back against the wall, with your attackers hands closing around your throat.

What would you do?

Budo.

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#94173 - 07/27/03 12:24 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Slap a hand down on the inside of his elbow and one on his wrist pushing his arm back towards him then while pushing grab his wrist and either throw him or put him in a wrist/shoulder lock. Commence to beat his face.

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#94174 - 07/28/03 02:57 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Slap a hand down on the inside of his elbow and one on his wrist pushing his arm back towards him then while pushing grab his wrist and either throw him or put him in a wrist/shoulder lock. Commence to beat his face.[/QUOTE]

Sorry Chen, I think this is mostly poo. It relies on strength too much to be effective.

I do agree with the wrist or other arm lock, before commencing the beating.

Budo.

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#94175 - 07/28/03 09:49 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
the504mikey Offline
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Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
I agree with you, Judder-- some of the bigger guys in my class will crush the life out of you while you hammer on the inside of their arms trying to get the elbow to bend. It just isn't going to happen.

They way we remove chokes of this type is typically to lift one of the choking arms UP from underneath without worrying about bending the elbow. You would be surprised how easy this is, even against a very strong opponent. Even if it occurs to him to try to hold his arm down, it's his arm muscles pulling down against your legs and arms pushing up-- should be no contest.

We lift the arm by striking with the palm either through the elbow joint or just behind the wrist-- if you look at your forearm, you will see a little curved indentation on the inside just behind the joint at the end of the radius. If you strike the arm on the underside even with that point the hand is coming off your neck, every time. Try it, it's neat.

So, plan a: strike one hand off at the wrist (This strike is strongest across your body, ie hit his right hand with your right hand.), step out, apply armbar to the now free arm, and introduce choker to the wall.

Plan b: bring one arm up on the inside and place the forearm across the opponent's collar bone. Trap the arm on that side at the elbow with your other hand (ie lay your palm on his elbow, just to keep him from turning away in the next step). Push off of the wall with your body, sending all the force through his collar bone. As he moves backwards, follow, move outside on the same side you trapped the arm, and sweep his legs, throwing him to the rear.

I hope these provide some food for thought...

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#94176 - 08/02/03 09:34 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
A favorite of mine in this situation is to bring one arm over the outside in a big circle, while turning, so that you trap his wrist under your armpit. Continue the turn and bring your arm down (elbow down, wrist up, forearm vertical). the hands pop off nicely. then a backwards elbow to the face or iriminage.

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#94177 - 08/02/03 10:25 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
Thanks for the clarification.

Ok a specific strangle.

You find yourself, back against the wall, with your attackers hands closing around your throat.

What would you do?

Budo.
[/QUOTE]

One thing I find quite effective (at least, in a dojo situation) is to bring your own forearm down hard onto both of your attacker's forearms, pulling him towards you. His balance starts to go and your hand is a great position for backfist.

Those of you proficient in the grappling arts, could do many things from this position.

NB When I am working with a heavier/stronger attacker I need to use both hands, one to smash onto their forearms and the other hoding my own hand so that both arms do the work. Heavier/stronger men can do it easily with one arm.


As I say, works in the dojo, but I would be interested to hear opinions on this in a "live" situation.
Sharon

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#94178 - 08/04/03 11:30 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Sharon,

In our dojo we have reached the conclusion that causing an attacker's arm to bend in the fashion you describe cannot be relied upon. We reached this conclusion by experimenting on some of our bigger, stronger people who were willing to act as punching bags.

I am 5'11" tall and weigh about 175 pounds. I found that I could not force these guys to bend their arms with a strike or pull intended to fold the elbow, especially if they choked me harder or mashed my throat when they saw the strike coming. Admittedly, these guys are big (more than six feet tall, well over 200 pounds) and they are tough (both work in law enforcement), but anyone who tries an attack like the one we are talking about is likely to have the physical advantage.

One thing I did not try is using both hands on one arm, although I have tried attacking both elbows with no success. It may well be that you are doing things in a way that will work that I haven't been able to come up with, but I would be concerned that your practice partners are not mentally placing themselves in the position of someone who hates you and wants you dead. I know a lot of "subconscious cooperation" goes on in our dojo.

Next time you get a chance, experiment with knocking one of the arms up and compare the effort required with that for folding an arm in. It is very hard to hold an arm down against someone trying to lift it from underneath, because we don't use our arms like that often.

I will try the two arms vs one arm fold the next time one of our gorillas (term of endearment) shows up. Also, I am sure you would do some kind of softening strike before folding the arm-- these guys aren't willing to let me practice that! Still, with a proper choke there isn't much time to be doing a lot of striking. Anyway, I thought I'd share those thoughts with you and the rest of the gang. Hopefully it's somewhat useful.

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#94179 - 08/04/03 12:35 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
For a front strangle as described, he's given you some advantages.

1. You now know where his hands are. They're not going to hit you from left field somewhere.

2. He's tied up both hands in a position that is not going to cause immediate death or loss of consciousness.

Ignore the hands and hit anything available with everything you've got. At the upper level, his eyes, throat, nose, jaw, temple, and at the lower level, nuts, knees, etc.

All have been left unprotected by his own actions.

The difficult part. Controlling the rising panic that his action may cause. Let someone strangle you full on for 3 seconds. A number of times. It isn't the worst thing in the world that can happen and if you get used to the feeling, your reactions will be more controlled.

JohnL

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#94180 - 08/04/03 12:45 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Anonymous
Unregistered


504mikey,
Thanks for that, I will certainly try your method.
Just to clarify though, I was also working with a big resistant partner but we started with his arms already bent. Is this not a more natural position? I would have thought so.
Woill let you know how I get on with your method.
Thanks again
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 08-04-2003).]

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