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#94181 - 08/04/03 12:48 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes

Had a chance to test it sooner than I thought. Knocking one arm up is even more effective if you simultaneously knock the other one down. This completely throws the other persons balance.
However, does not work as well if their arms are bent, so I will continue to practice both ways.
Let me know what you think.

#94182 - 08/04/03 02:50 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States

Wow! Fast feedback. I guess the time difference is working to our advantage. I am still stuck in the office (I'm in the United States), but I will try to remember to experiment some tonight. (I am also testing, so it may get pushed out of my mind.) I like the one arm up and one down idea, I think it might be easier to get as a grab at the elbows and push/pull rather than a strike. It sounds like you could take him over to one side or maybe even introduce him to the wall with that.

Anyway, some more thoughts on the strangling method-- the arm is definitely slightly bent. Most of us in the class rarely straighten our arms all the way because bad things tend to happen to us if we get caught with an elbow locked out.

The arms have a very slight bend maybe five to ten degrees, the elbows are down and under, not to the side, and the wrists are cocked slightly down to engage the forearm muscles underneath. This creates a rigid frame not unlike what aikido refers to as the "unbendable arm". (I always thought the unbendable arm was more of a parlor trick than anything, but we have been using it to add leverage to certain throws, and it's handy.)

Anyway, we pin the "victim" against the wall, our arms set as described, and then use our legs to push into the throat. Usually we lead a bit with one leg to protect the groin somewhat.

The upward strike we use is a palm heel to the underside of the arm about three inches behind the wrist. I would use my right against his right, and use my legs and waist turn to add power. Note that since the elbows are turned down, the direction you hit may not be straight up, but rather straight into the weak point on the under side of his forearm. So you may be hitting as much "out" as "up", and then you step in the same direction to get away from the other arm. I think that works on a bent arm, but I am not sure it would always work. When you say the arms are bent, how much bend are we talking? I would be interested in finding an angle for which it doesn't work, because this is one of my instructor's favorite techniques and we get brownie points if we can shoot holes in them.


#94183 - 08/04/03 03:12 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes

one arm up, one down works better because you cannot use the same amount of muscle as if both arms up/down.
Learned this/used when EMT, best way to retrain combative patient is tie one arm above head,other below waist so cannot effectively coordinate all muscle groups.

#94184 - 08/04/03 03:53 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes

The bend is about 10 to 15 degrees.

your method may still be better for you, but I find it difficult, possibly due to size/strength. I only weigh 126 pounds at the moment.

Will be interesting to hear what you think.
I am sure this would be easier face to face!

#94185 - 08/04/03 04:50 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States

Thanks again for the info. I don't think the police officers will be in class tonight, but there is a generator mechanic who has a strong grip I can practice against. I will let you know what we can figure out. I think with the amount of bend you are talking about the "fold technique" you are using is probably a good fit. We have a technique called "maki komi" that makes use of that fold, and when they are that close with both hands busy there are lots of good striking targets as you know.

Anyway, thanks again for getting back to me.

#94186 - 08/04/03 08:15 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
.... Let someone strangle you full on for 3 seconds. A number of times. It isn't the worst thing in the world that can happen and if you get used to the feeling, your reactions will be more controlled.


I've seen people go OUT in that length of time (3 seconds). It doesn't take long when it's on. Relying on eye boinks against an experienced judo/BJJ, catch-wrestling IS NOT GOING TO CUT IT!!!!!

Learn the TECHNICAL counters folks before reaching for the "eye boinks". Contrary to popular belief, these can't be learned on an internet forum. It takes actual PRACTICE to get these down. Find a Brazilian jiu-jitsu or a Judo school and you'll be ahead of the game!


#94187 - 08/04/03 09:03 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
504 Mikey, In the post of yours after mine (dont know how to get the quotes) the technique you described is very similar to what I was saying. Pushing the arm up. The only difference was that i mentioned an inside elbow strike. I know some pretty strong guys and I dont know any that could keep an arm straight while a hammerfist hits the inside of their elbow joint. Also do you guys all smoke or something? Whats all this talk about 3 seconds being long enough to put you out?

#94188 - 08/05/03 12:13 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States

I have been talking to Sharon/Wado Woman about the bending the arm with a strike idea. She gave me some things to think about, but I didn't get a chance to try them yet.

I believed you could only bend the arm with a strike under certain conditions, but that you could always remove the arm without bending it by hitting it in the right spot and direction.

Sharon made some points from her experiences that caused me to have some doubts about things we were "all sure about" in my dojo before I talked to you guys. I will have to try this stuff again in light of what you all have told me. It may be that we have as a group brainwashed ourselves into believing the lift the arm idea always works-- you know how group think can take over in a dojo, especially a small one like ours. I will keep you guys posted as I get the chance to try new things-- I was tied up testing tonight.

The three seconds thing comes from people who are thinking strangles, not chokes. By the definition I use, a choke deprives a person of air by either compressing their lungs or restricting their airway. They will remain conscious for as long as they can hold their breath, and will put up a heck of a fight while doing so.

A strangle, on the other hand, works by depriving the brain of blood flow. In a calm, relaxed person this may take ten seconds or so to cause a loss of consciousness, but in an active person it should take about three to four seconds, and in some cases a good brain choke can induce unconsciousness almost instantaneously. When a strangle is applied rapidly enough, the sudden pressure increase in the carotid sinus signals the heart to slow down, which in turn reduces the time you have to get free. They are a much more significant threat than airway chokes IMO.

My instructor has thrown me in ways which cause my body weight to strangle me, and when he does my vision is tunneling in and getting dim before I hit the ground. I have no doubt that if he did not ease up on the strangle while I was in the process of falling that I would have at most a second or two to try to worm out of a very bad situation. It will definitely make you think about protecting your neck!

These days most people use the word choke to refer to either case (like when I typed brain choke above without realizing it), and it can be confusing which one they are talking about.

These strangles usually operate on a region of the neck known as the upper carotid triangle, and unconsciousness can result from a strangle applied to either one or both sides.

You can look up info about the carotid triangle and then try pressing on your own to feel the effects... you don't have to push hard at all, and you will feel your vision starting to blur within a few seconds from application. That's when it's time to let go, or tap out when you are training with a partner. I don't think it is a good idea to carry this through to unconsciousness, because you have little to learn from it and there is a chance damage can be done or even that death will result if the choke is held too long.

There are people who do this in some dojos, but they are trained in resuscitation techniques and in my opinion they are still taking an unnecessary risk. It may be that you are already familiar with various strangles, but if you are not I would urge you to be very careful experimenting with them. Find a judo or jujitsu type who knows the subtle dangers and problems to practice with. We had someone lose consciusness hours *after* practicing in another dojo due to swelling in the carotid region of the neck. Play nice!

I hope this helps...

#94189 - 08/05/03 09:30 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Funnily enough John, I agree with most of what you said. Mind you I don't recall that I ever said eye boinks. [IMG][/IMG]

3 seconds is not a given, just a suggestion. The reason for this is, I've seen people work on the technical methodologies for releasing chokes. Two things normally happen;

1. Weaker people cannot apply the releases effectively when they are applied by a stronger person. Skill differential can help, but the problem is that a strong guy grabbing you by the throat doesn't need a lot of skill to hurt you.

2. I've seen people training in releases when the choke is not being applied fully. This gives a false sense of confidence. When the choke was then applied fully, the result was invariably total panic on behalf of the defender.

My suggestion is only an alternative to the "technical" releases being discussed.

I agree you can't learn these releases on the internet. You've gotta get down and dirty.


#94190 - 08/05/03 11:41 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ah, thanks for the clarification Mikey. By your definition of strangles I would have to agree as I have seen some go out almost instantaneously. Any time someone goes unconcious by way of choke strangle or KO there is a risk but it does not mean it is unneccessary risk. Boxers get KO'd alot and I think that as a MA'st if you have the skills to render one unconcious then you should also have the skills to resuscitate. If you know how to punch do you not also know how to block?

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