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#94161 - 07/22/03 08:48 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I actually like to set up for a back kick when I can, providing I'm not pulled backward immeidately by the choker, and can lean forward instinctively as soon as I feel a touch on my neck.

If I am pulled backwards, elbows backwards, finger breaking, or some throws.

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#94162 - 07/22/03 08:49 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good one ed, I forgot that one,which is suprising since I like it.

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#94163 - 07/22/03 09:29 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I was at my mates house, he practisces Hapkido, we were arseing around, so we decided to somethong constructive, he showed me how to attack someone when your handcuffed, some throws that break your neck and so on, and he got a little aggressive, putting me in a headlock (carotid choke actually) from behind as I sat down in an armchair. I reacted, reached my hand over to the other side of his scalp, and pulled him down to my side. I was impressed, he was in a position to cop a broken neck or KO. Simple but very effective, Judderman.

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#94164 - 07/22/03 09:43 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
This counter works if you act fast, and it counters a rear choke or bear hug type restraint, swing your arm around, over their head, as you twist your body, get them in a headlock (around the painful part of the head above the eyes, on the temples, and you can take initiative as they are tackled.

The throw from Sochin is good, (attacking the hyperglossal and throwing them onto your knee http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=204 ) and so is the elbow from Seiunchin http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=205 , but if you are grapping, the position ("positional dominance"?) of the opponent reflects as to how effective your counters will be.

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#94165 - 07/23/03 07:06 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Many great suggestions. If the choke is already sunk, and you are using your arms to fight it, one way to get a little airspace is to stomp the shin/instep, HARD AND FAST. This may provide a VERY short loosening of the lock, which you must be prepared to capitalize on with a technical escape.
I forgot! The classic "John Wayne", where you slam him back against something preferably hard and sharp. Crude, but effective. If worse comes to worse, get out your blade and "remove" the offending arms.

[This message has been edited by Jamoni (edited 07-23-2003).]

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#94166 - 07/23/03 11:18 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I never leave home without it. Even at the sight of a blade most attackers will turn tail and run. The ones that dont are the ones to look out for. If I had a blade in this situation I would try to stab the elbow joint causing tissue and possibly structural damage.

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#94167 - 07/24/03 09:49 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Stevo Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 52
Loc: Australia
All great posts..It really depends on the choke, if its on the ground there are 100 chokes and 100 escapes!!But if its standing...there are still 100 escapes!! Lets make a few assumptions...Most of the time a choke is not fully on right from the word go.Even somone inexperienced will react to an arm around their neck maybe by tucking your chin also the person may have to to man-handle you into position, plus the chances that the person can actually perform the technique correctly. This all gives you a window to escape, once it is fully on yes, you only have 2-6 seconds. As a grappler I have wrestled on the ground for 2-3 minutes with a guy trying to get the choke around my neck good enough to actually work..sometimes he won sometimes he didnt.
On the ground...standing up...wrestling...punching ... kicking..the most important thing is a good solid base..
Usually the attacker will pull you backwards off balance and put a hand or head against the back of your head to stop head-butts. From this position you are screwed, so first get posture, get your feet back under your hips, this is not that hard with practice, also as stated above you can step back and twist to the side, now in a side head lock.
Two examples of how good posture is..1 try to rear choke somone who is taller that you when they expect it and stand there, its very hard to get up around their neck.
2. From a front on choke (when your bent forward with your head in their arm pit) step forward and "posture up" this will lift their arm and them straight up..
My favourite escape from the rear choke is simple effective, non-harmful and requires extreme finesse, it could be my favourite martial art move..
They have their right arm around your neck, you get posture..ie your feet under your hips, grab hold of their arm with both of yours and pin it to your kneck..hold it in tight, turn slightly to the left and kneel onto your right knee, continue to pull as if their elbow was to touch the floor. It takes no strength..you simply make them do a forward roll..I know I will get many criticsisms saying that this does not work, but it does for me
Thanks everyone for your great input
Stephen

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#94168 - 07/24/03 11:17 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Excellent post. I dont think that flashy finesse moves are the answer here. 2-6 seconds to recall a complicated pattern of movements isnt a long time. Like Ed said the best answer is prevention. In this situation Im going for a blade or a groin strike or grab. If you could get the technique down you might be able to land a solid kick to the knee but Ive never practiced it in this context so I dont know what the results of that would be.

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#94169 - 07/25/03 10:25 AM Re: Strangles and Chokes
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
I'm assuming we're talking "What can I do after the choke is on?" and not "What can I do when the choke is first attempted?" Two very different animals!

A trained opponent is always going to destroy your posture in connection with the choke. (e.g. if he chokes from behind he will also drag you backwards off your feet, turn his body to protect his groin, and place his head solidly against the back of yours, thereby protecting against head butts, and also maintaining the pressure of the choke)

Broken posture is no position to launch a striking attack from-- you just won't get any power, and you've only got a few seconds to get the job done. So the first order of business is to get some kind of stable base to operate from. Ed was the only one I saw who took that into account in his post.

For the situation he described, we do something similar but simpler, in my opinion.

For a right handed choke from behind (I'm thinking your typical bouncer, police choke procedure), we lock both hands on the choking arm, and step out and around to the rear with our right leg. Depending on how far you step, this sets up either tai-otoshi or osoto-gari. If you time it right, you are stepping in the direction the enemy is pulling you, so a big step and then a bow will plant them so hard you have to feel it to believe it. We always give it a little help with a sweep or a trap to stay on the safe side. It's like Ed's getting your hips out move, except we also turn our body. I think this might be easier than slipping your whole body out and around backwards, since you just get one leg around and turn, then throw.

If you can't step around, we also practice squatting straight down, and then shoving backwards with both feet. We push so that our back is against the inside of one knee, and this will take the person over backwards. It is a rare person who will maintain the choke through a nasty fall like that, and the quick drop tends to take the power out of the choke grip to begin with.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I hope someone finds it interesting, amusing, or maybe even useful. Let me know if you spot any obvious weaknesses in it.

PS: There's nothing like typing ten paragraphs and then seeng that Ed said it in one word in his post: seionage.

Still, adding the sweep or trap (osoto gari or tai otoshi) increases the chance for success, so I'll leave this here for the benefit of those who didn't know what seionage is or how to apply it in this situation. Besides, Ed may have been referring to people who try to drag the attacker over their shoulder for a forward seionage, in which case I would change "sometimes doesn't work" to "almost never works." Anyway, if you're still with me thanks for reading.




[This message has been edited by the504mikey (edited 07-25-2003).]

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#94170 - 07/25/03 01:46 PM Re: Strangles and Chokes
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Not coming from a grappling background, can you explain what "seionage" is please?

What about strangles? Any thoughts?

Budo.

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