326/327 BC Alexander invades the Punjab. As far as anyone can tell, just for the hell of it.
Then (as per usual) after giving us poor old Indians a kicking, he says, "well, i'll let you continue as before, same government and all, because really I'm a nice guy'.
Having just conquered them, he sets up a programme of teaching the remaining Indian warrior caste Greek Pancration. Really.
Now, despite the assertions of 19th and early 20th century western scholars such as Max Muller, Hinduism did not spring up in the Indus valley around 1000 BCE. More recent and compelling evidence has dated the origins of the religion and the Indus civilisation and its texts - the Vedas - the Mahabharata and Ramayana etc. etc.(which both talk in great detail about the warrior caste) to well before 2700 BCE, when the civilisation was flourishing. (The Aryan invasion theory is a myth)
Is it not possible that such a civilisation with a warrior/ruler caste such as the Indus valley civilisation would have its own system of armed and unarmed combat before Alexander?
Na.
Then 800 years after Alexander had come and gone, Bodhidarma, a Bhuddist missionary, (obviously having studied Pancration, from those Hindu warriors) teaches it to some fat lazy Chinese monks in a little wooden temple. Unfortunately his studies did not go so far as to the operation of doors. So he had to stare at the wall of this little wooden temple for 9 years in order to knock it over so he could get to the monks. Damn.
These monks (despite dealing with having the whole place burnt down and some imperial back-stabbing) teach the rest of China 'kung fu'. I do not lie. They teach the Okinawans, the Okinawans teach the Japanese.
The Okinawans and the Japanese hadn't got a clue before then.
Thats why there were no wars or civil unrest west of Dehli before the mid 6th century. Because realising that you could use your hands and feet to clobber other people when you were really pissed at them was completely beyond those who had not been taught by the Greeks.
You see the Greeks had a secret mystical ingredient which made their way of hitting people really special.
Registered: 08/18/00
Posts: 253
Loc: Marina, Ca. USA
Hi Al,
Well, Alexander didn't invade India just for the Hell of it. Like the Romans who would come after him, Alexander of Macedonia saw the Greek culture, and thought that it should be spread throughout the world. India represented knoweledge and wealth...something else that Alexander was keen on adding to his empire.
Alexander loved the innovations of Greek Science and Culture, and like the Romans, both were amazed at the Military power that this country could bring to bear. But the only time the City-States united was when Persia repeated its many attempts at conquoring Greece. Deciding to end the petty squabbling and constant inner-warfare between the City-States, Alexander chose to unite the Greeks...by conquoring them and ending their internal disputes.
With a unified Greece, he combined it with his Macedonian forces and began the next step of his dream...that of exporting Greek Culture to the rest of the world ( via conquest ).
Their is absolutely no question that the Indians as all countries have their own form of combat, if you'll take time out to read accounts. Alexander was amazed at India's armies and use of living battering rams ( elephants ).
The tactic of conquoring a nation and then allowing it to retain its Government was not unique to Alexander. In exchange for fealty, the Romans did this as well.
So did Alexander export Greek culture and thoughts throughout his empire? Yes, were they the only source in terms of fighting style...no.
Alexander's refusal to name an heir would lead to his empire fading away with him when he died.
Well, Alexander didn't invade India just for the Hell of it. Like the Romans who would come after him, Alexander of Macedonia saw the Greek culture, and thought that it should be spread throughout the world.
Eric[/QUOTE]
Cool, I wasn't Greek bashing.
Just bashing simplistic thinking. I would argue that Greek influence on say Shoalin Kung Fu or Japanese karate is nil.
Just for the sake of a bit historiographical argument, I would like to point out that from my personal perspective I would argue that it is very difficult to say that Alexander's main (or even significant) motive was the exportation of Greek ideas and culture. Its a statement that is difficult to prove, even if this is what he achieved.
My flipancy in saying 'for the hell of it', is that from my point of view Alexander's motives were not obvious (in a traditional sense) for say security or plunder or defence, but rather perhaps for his own agrandisement?
Mainly i wanted to attempt to dispell an idea that this great martial system or secret was passed across the Euroasian continent. Having said that I would not say that neighbours do not influence eachother.
[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 04-16-2004).]
Registered: 08/18/00
Posts: 253
Loc: Marina, Ca. USA
Hi Al,
Actually there's not much to dispute in terms of Alexander's desire to spread the Greek ideology. He influenced the spread of Hellenism throughout the Middle East and into Asia, establishing city-states modeled on Greek institutions that flourished long after his death. Arisotle was Alexander's tutor.
Ok, I can see the notion of wanting to dispell the idea that martial arts descended from Greece. Like I said earlier, all established societies had their miltiaries and fighting systems. But when successful inscursions of an aggressor between one nation and another meet. There is a sampling and examining of the opponent so as to see what makes them effective.
Did the Indians have their own fighting systems? Yes...but the City States that he modeled after the Greeks did teach their ways of thought to those of other nations...including their fighting systems. Which have been found on pottery in India that distinguishes their moves and patterns.
There's so much about the Greeks that has been forgotten. For example, today we look at the Boxer's and perhaps some whom Box today wonder how they would have faired against their namesakes in the days of old.
As you know, modern Boxers tape their hands, for the purpose of helping to keep all of the bones in their hand in place, while the gloves enabled the Boxer to safely strike bone-to-bone targets without dislocations of breaking their knuckles.
The Ancient Greeks wrapped a leather strap around their hands and knuckles. Not for protection mind you, but so that when strikes to the face were made to assist them in ripping the skin open. Since the face bleeds profusely, this was done to litterally bleed out your opponents strength and endurance. The Greeks fingers were free...so unlike today's boxers the could also engage in grabbing, pinching and pressure points. If a match carried on two long. The match was stopped and each fighter was given a turn at delivering one strike to a portion of their opponents body of their choosing.
The Romans took it a step further and replaced the strap with blades, shortening the Boxing match into a quick and lethal match in which the jab took on lethal implications.
I think Alexander's invasion might have had some influence on Diamond fist boxing which is simular to the boxing Eric said the Romans practised. Otherwise, I see no relationship.
Shaolin, Kalaripayatt, Kalaripayatu resemble Kung Fu and involve the concept of prana/Chi...which isn't accepted by western civilizations past and present. The awareness of prana was brought about mostly through the study of Yoga. I doubt wether Alexander's army created Yoga or the concept of prana. Yoga is linked to Hinduism.
Gatka, ThangTa, Dhalsim again I see no relationship.
Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
If you have a look at the TKD forum you will see some posts explaining that Taekwon-Do does not have its origins in Taekwon but rather in SHotokan Karate (you probably new this already). The reason for this is when the Japanese occupied Korea they banned the practice of Korean martial arts, they then conscripted Koreans into the Japanese army and taught them Shotokan karate. In this way the effectively wiped out most of koreas indigenous martial arts.
COuld this not have happened in India too. When a country conquers another country they usually impose alot of their culture on that country. I think we can agree that Greece had an influence on India's fighting systems, to what extent is probably what this debate is about.
I admit that my first post was incorrect in saying it was the founder of Asian martial arts. Howveer the intention was to prove the point that Vale Tudo is as old as anything else.
Registered: 08/18/00
Posts: 253
Loc: Marina, Ca. USA
Hi Al,
Glad you liked the info. What's always fascinated me is both the similarities and differences that different styles or cultures have come up with in formulating their combative arts.
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