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#93216 - 05/21/03 02:06 PM My response to the latest article of knife defence on the site - any views?
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
This is one of the better articles on defence against the knife that has come up on the website. This topic is a pet issue of mine so I feel obliged to comment. I appreciate and concur with the concept of avoidance and interception as opposed to a direct barrier method. However I really must take issue with the concept espoused in the pictures attached to the article. I really must question why after establishing some control of the weapon arm, the author relinquishes said control and opts for a flowery arm lock with the other arm. Some people are extremely flexible in the shoulder area (myself included) and that weapon is still potentialy a live threat in the last two pictures. This is doubly the case if the arm lock is not fully "on". Why I might ask (in reference to the third picture in the sequence) having gained a measure of control of the knife arm, does the defender, rather than grasping for the attacker's other arm simply unleash a torrent of punches and elbow strikes to the attacker's face and head? Such force would be justifiable in the circumstances and infinitely more decisive. A rapid floury of elbow strikes to the head would be devestating at that range, end the confrontation quicker and certainly my chosen course of action. I appreciate the authors background is in the locking arts, which I myself practice in conjunction with percussive arts. However where edged weapons are concerned, surely brutal practicality and consumate aggression are the order of the day rather than utilising the technical niceties. While I think about it the sequence is FURTHER unrealistic in that there is not even a stunning strike to facilitate the application of the lock. Frankly trying to implement the technique described against a man intent on stabbing you without a prior strike is verging on lunacy in my honest opinion. I'll not even get into the lack of realism involved in the implication that psychotic knife wielders really only do try to stab you once and then stand there like arthritic donkeys while you wrap them up nice and tight. Do excuse the rant and this is not intended as a personal attack on the author, but it realy worries me to see what are the theoretical musings of traditional martial artists attempting to apply there traditional art to a problem, being touted as practical solutions to edges weapon scenarios. In my opinion that sequence is potentialy very dangerous to the defender.


[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 05-21-2003).]

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#93217 - 05/21/03 02:28 PM Re: My response to the latest article of knife defence on the site - any views?
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
I agree, I must say I am a bit crap at weapon defence but after seeing systema in action it has given me a bit of a different out look on the whole thing.

I still would have no chance against a knife attacker, Ok I could try but non of the training I have found yet has covered this area well enough.

What art do you train in Mr V?

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#93218 - 05/21/03 03:04 PM Re: My response to the latest article of knife defence on the site - any views?
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
I agree with Mr.V.

Further to that, I think it's a waste of time trying to demonstrate how to defend yourself from a knife through an article with pictures.

I think its possible to talk about certain concepts in an article, but the reality is that such circumstances are unique, the common ground is found only in violence and rapidity.

In some ways I think trying to demonstrate defence against a knife attack through photos with commentry, is like trying to photograph a bullet from a gun.

The medium of communication is not up to it. I'm not saying that an article can't highlight the danger - or such concepts as control of the weapon, but this step by step guide business is a nonsense.

Its too much like a 'turn based' computer game than real life.



[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 05-21-2003).]

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#93219 - 05/21/03 03:05 PM Re: My response to the latest article of knife defence on the site - any views?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree too.
I was taught some beautiful looking knife defence by my first instructor. Unfortunately, none of them would stop my eight year old stabbing me, as I discovered when I started training with partners who resisted and continued trying to stab me (with a rubber knife, thank God!)
The thing is, I am sure the instructor thought these techniques were brilliantly effective.
Sharon

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#93220 - 05/21/03 04:57 PM Re: My response to the latest article of knife defence on the site - any views?
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Ukfightfreak

Primarily Yoseikan Budo but also Jujitsu and Kempo. I've dabbled in pretty much everything else over the years as well, except for kung fu which never grabbed me much and (come to think of it) kali/escrima which i've never had the opportunity to try out. This in itself is ironic as they are very knife orientated Arts [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Regds
Mr V


[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 05-21-2003).]

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#93221 - 05/22/03 05:02 AM Re: My response to the latest article of knife defence on the site - any views?
KarateJoe Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 58
Loc: UK
I've got to agree with MrV. I took one look at the photos & thought, 'What the...'

Very unrealistic. I'm surprised that it was even published on this site.

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#93222 - 05/22/03 05:05 AM Re: My response to the latest article of knife defence on the site - any views?
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
Mr V. What have you found to be the most effective system for defense against weapons esp. knives?

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#93223 - 05/22/03 06:07 AM Re: My response to the latest article of knife defence on the site - any views?
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
My own...without intending to be big headed about it and strongly rooted on concepts taken from Yoseikan Budo. I don't really agree with trying to deal with edged weapons stylisticly, its a death sentence. This is the problem that I alluded to in the original post. The author is a jujitsu practitioner so out of all the possible responses to that attack he opts for an arm lock. Why? because it a familiar takedown and restraint technique from his system. The fact that its not in the least bit safe appears not to be in issue.

If I must put a lable on what I deem to be the best response to edged weapon attacks, it would be this: "Avoidance/deflection followed by rapid entry and control of the weapon arm followed by EXTREME violence until the threat is nutralised." I couldn't care less HOW that violence is perpetrated (elbows, headbuts, biting his face off) the only requirement is that he goes down and out and I retain control of the weapon. I mean for God's sake if you must do an arm retraint of some kind, at least punch him on the nose before trying it! (I wouldn't by the way). To my mind the only arm restraint that should be used in this sitaution other than to secure the weapon arm are ones that involve shattering limbs not locking them up in nice classical techniques.

REgds
Mr V

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#93224 - 05/22/03 06:25 AM Re: My response to the latest article of knife defence on the site - any views?
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
I think you are right.

I once heard a highly ranked systema exponent comment,

[QUOTE]"If you get into a knife fight, it doesn't matter who you are you will get cut"[/QUOTE]

I don't think many MA practitioners realise that.

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#93225 - 05/22/03 08:20 AM Re: My response to the latest article of knife defence on the site - any views?
viper aus Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 56
Loc: australia
my head instructor is curently having private lessons with Raymond Floro (Illustrisimo Kali. check it out) and bring parts of his lesson to class. Raymond believes there is 100% effective defence to the overhead attack. he uses a method of both arms clasped together ,one hand to inside elbow the other to outside and driving at the elbow of arm on the downward movement. upon contact roll to the outside and attack vital pionts ie. knees, lower back, seviacal spine
he also states that most knife attacks are generally more than a single blow . they are usualy multiple and frenzied therefore trying to capture the arm is very difficult.

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