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#92842 - 04/12/03 01:53 PM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Thank you for your effort raccoon.

I have a copy of the FBI "surviving edged weapons video"

Kind of makes the traditional MA responses to an edged weapon attack seem totally stupid.

Does anyone remember the Bruce Tegnar books and all the 1960/70`s prescribed self defence techniques!?
So many clubs still teach that rubbish against knifes, I think traditional Ju-Jitsu is the worst……”knife defence no1” etc…….

i have done a great deal of real knife defence training, even managed to train with some SAS guys.

Strange but 1 thing that is different in the UK to the US is the use of the ice pick or hammer grip, it is less common in the UK, as knifes tend to be smaller due to the severe legal penalties on carry a blade in the UK


#92843 - 04/12/03 02:12 PM Re: Being held up at knifepoint

Mark,. I would LOVE to look at that video if you didn't mind. Mike has seen it and thought it was great stuff.

#92844 - 04/12/03 03:57 PM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
Oldwolf Offline

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 71
Loc: Scotland
Excellent post Racoon, confirms much of my own efforts and thoughts as mentioned in a previous post. Just a couple of minor points. The reasons for the 'victims' backing off to attain more peripheral vision is to my mind supposition, fitting the fact that the cortex of the brain creates tunnel vision to focus on the percieved threat, and could just as easily be explained as part of the flight syndrome, or just desire to distance oneself from the threat.

Only 3 out of 85 of the 'trained observers' saw the weapon, thats about 3.3%, yet I suspect that Darren doesn't teach 96.7% observation skills, and will be like the rest of us teaching what we are comfortable with unarmed combat.

I've got a terrible memory for names but I think the guys name is Massayad Ayooba, any work by him is well worth the effort.
But again excellent post.

[This message has been edited by Oldwolf (edited 04-12-2003).]

#92845 - 04/12/03 05:47 PM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
raccoon Offline

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Thanx people. I am sure Darren will be happy to know his writing are well received by traditionalists. I was a little nervous about posting his essays; from what I saw in the general discussion forum, the traditionalists don't usually get along with the reality fighting people.

To address OldWolf...
Only 3 out of 85 of the 'trained observers' saw the weapon, thats about 3.3%, yet I suspect that Darren doesn't teach 96.7% observation skills, and will be like the rest of us teaching what we are comfortable with unarmed combat.[/QUOTE]

I think the studies was conducted on LEOs back when Darren was still in the police force, I don't know if he necessarily trained them.

No, he doesn't spend 97% of his class time teaching observation skills, if that's what you meant. His program (ISC) is about street combats, which isn't always about deadly force/ edged weapons defense.

But as Darren pointed out in his essay, knowledge is power; knowing the stat AND making the assumption that "in a fight, the person I an dealing with may have a concealed weapon that I don’t see. " is a good place to start.

Thanx for the inputs though, I will point that out to him when I see him next week.


P.S.> No Sharon, I didn't type it up, I just copy and pasted it [IMG][/IMG]

#92846 - 04/22/03 07:15 PM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
judderman Offline

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Thanks OldWolf.

I found the guys name Massaad Ayoob.

A search on the net has produced some very interesting lines of enquiry.


#92847 - 04/22/03 11:13 PM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
Jamoni Offline

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Massad Ayoob. He writes for several gun magazines. Listen to this guy.

#92848 - 04/22/03 11:16 PM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Thought he was the Arab looking dude who teaches the FBI MA and LEO techs, such as gunnery and gun use.

Same guy, as in you should listen to what he says?

#92849 - 04/23/03 04:12 AM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I'm sorry, I had promised myself I wouldn't post here any more, but I just can't leave this alone.

First, can I say, what a load of bull. We all know statistics can be made to show more or less anything, we all know you wont remember them in a fight (even if you did -they would, we all have some idea of what to look for in a potential attacker already and we all know knives are dangerous.

Take that away and what are we left with...control the delivery system. Well there's a scoop. Hadn't thought of that one myself, I thought best bet would be a kick to the shin and hope for the best. [IMG][/IMG]

Forgive me, I'm a cynic. Stating the obvious has never really been enough to convince me of much.


#92850 - 04/23/03 10:48 AM Re: Being held up at knifepoint

Are you saying that what is written is of no value to any of us or just no value to you because you have so much more experienc?

Also, I would be interested in your answers to the questions in the original post.

Glad to see you back here
Sharon [IMG][/IMG]

#92851 - 04/23/03 11:34 AM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I'm a firm believer that too much information is a bad thing in relation to these kind of topics, Sharon. I think we are in danger of analysing every little detail without ever reaching any definate conclusions. For every study that says one thing, there is another that contradicts at least some of that theory. It is up to you which one you buy into (often quite literally).

Usually these type of systems claim to be "evoloving" all the time, in reality what that means is they teach one thing today and then in 12 months time they tell you "actually, we don't do that anymore, we've (this) works better". What use is that? If a technique/theory works, then it works. It wont become outdated.

Each year I am obliged by my work to undertake just this sort of "reality" training, with the whole "psychology" package thrown in. I've yet to do two years the same.

When you bring it down to actual fighting skills, you will find that what you are doing is a Westernised version of an Eastern martial art. There isn't anything new on offer.

I'm also very wary of the idea that you can overcome your natural physiological responses to fear through learning about them. In my experience, people have to habituate a certain level of violence before they can even hope to have any self control. Anyone who isn't used to violent behaviour will react adversely when confronted by it. No amount of training can prepare you for a sudden violent attack, especially if you are unfamiliar with violence.

Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.


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