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#92852 - 04/23/03 12:25 PM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
Anonymous
Unregistered


Cato, I agree, that someone unused to violence will not react as well or as quickly when they need to. We see it to a lesser extent in the dojo, the first time a relative beginner gets hit and completely over react, not because of pain, but because being hit the first time is a shock. The next time they get hit, it is not so bad, and eventually, we hardly mind at all (except we want to learn to not let it happen again).

Obviously, I am not saying that sparring in the dojo prepares us for dealing with an attack, but surely training in MA gives us a bit of an edge. If we can make our training as realistic as possible that must give us a bit more of an edge. (I know it can never be totally realistic because (a) we are not taken totally by suprise and (b) most of us feel secure in the dojo because we know our instructors and opponents do not want to kill us).

None of us really know how we would react in a situation that we have not been in before but do you really think there is nothing we can do to prepare ourself in case the worse happens? I like to think that the right sort of training would give us an above average chance of at least escaping alive if not unhurt (I accept that if a knife were involved, most of us would be cut).

Also, do you agree with the policewoman who said it is better to be stabbed in a public place than it is to go with an attacker?
Sharon

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#92853 - 04/23/03 04:12 PM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I don't know that there is a better place to be stabbed, I suspect it'll hurt just the same either way, but I understand what you are getting at and I agree 100 per cent that if confronted you should stay as public as possible and draw attention to yourself as best you can.

As for whether training can help, of course it can. Martial artists are obviously far more likely to survive a fight than someone who never had a fight in their life. The danger, as I see it, is false confidence. We all like to think are MA's training will see of allcomers, or at least make them think twice, but will it really? I've said this many times before but fighting is fighting. No matter how much style you do it with, it comes down to very basic inherent characteristics.

I know the "reality" instructors will tell me how wrong I am, but that is my honest opinion based on my own experiences and those of the people I work with. Some of the best fighters I have ever seen have never trained a day in their life and certainly never set foot on a dojo, whilst some of the ex-military guys couldn't fight their way out of the proverbial paper bag.

If you're serious about self defence then you shouldn't be starting with ways to disarm a knife wielding idiot. You should
keep it much more simple than that: How to avoid a knife wielding idiot would be a good place to start, I think.

Budo

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#92854 - 04/23/03 05:13 PM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Some of the best fighters I have ever seen have never trained a day in their life and certainly never set foot on a dojo, whilst some of the ex-military guys couldn't fight their way out of the proverbial paper bag.[/QUOTE]

And your point is? Given the technology nowadays, war fare isn't a matter of H2H combats anymore. Why then, would we expect military professional to be any better than the rest of us?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
If you're serious about self defence then you shouldn't be starting with ways to disarm a knife wielding idiot. You should
keep it much more simple than that: How to avoid a knife wielding idiot would be a good place to start, I think.
[/QUOTE]

Hmm, you've argued in another thread that MA is about fighting, not running away. Have you changed your mind? Are you agreeing now that ways to avoid confrontation should be a part of MA training? Or do you maintain your previous argument that MA isn't the place to teach it? If your answer is the later case, are you implying MA does not encompass self defense?

-yours sincerely
raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-23-2003).]

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#92855 - 04/24/03 01:43 AM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
Anonymous
Unregistered


Cato, I thought that was what you meant, but I wanted to make sure.
I totally agree about the false confidence. I think a good instructor would make sure that their students know the difference between what is martially effective and what is "art". Unfortunately this is not always the case (often because the instructor himself/herself knows no better).
I know an instructor in his early twenties, he is 3rd dan wado and 1st dan jujitsu who looks great on the mat, whether fighting or performing kata. Because he is very young, fit and flexible, and so were most of the people that he trained with, his training focus has always been on beautiful acrobatic jujitsu and very high karate kicks. He has only ever done point sparring and has not done much bag work.
He was attacked on holiday by three louts and his first thought was to perform a high axe kick. It was probably beautifully executed from an "art" point of view, but he ended up in quite a bad way without getting a single shot in.
The sad thing is that when we talked about it afterwards he said he was "just unlucky" and does not want to change the way he trains.
Sharon

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#92856 - 04/24/03 04:01 AM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
wow what a statement:-

"No amount of training can prepare you for a sudden violent attack,"

I thought that was the whole point of training in a "combat" system!!!

IM really suprised at your point of view Cato. still it is yours and as such I respect it.

Mark

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#92857 - 05/10/03 09:56 PM Re: Being held up at knifepoint
Shadowfax Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Mason City, IA
}}}}}(A) an untrained woman should do?

Scream until he tells her to stop. Try to do what he wants until she sees an opportunity to escape. Untrained empty hand against a knife is a VERY bad spot to be in!


}}}}}}(B) What do you think YOU realistically would do?


Trap the weapon as soon as possible, soften him up with rapid strikes to vital areas, and disarm the knife. It ALL depends, of course, on how he's attacking you. If he's dumb enough to stand behind me while holding the knife to my throat, he's getting stabbed in the neck (grab knife hand, hold firmly against your body, drop your weight down as you twist into his body. The knife goes right into the neck). If he sticks the knife in my side, he's getting the knife taken away from him. If he's standing in front of me waving the knife, then out comes my knife and we'll see if he wants to continue at that point. If he does, we'll both get cut, but hopefully my training will see to it that he gets cut a lot worse than I do!

here are my rules for any situation in which I am faced with a non-ranged weapon.

1) Run
2) If for some reason I can't run, hide.
3) If I can't run and I can't hide, find an equalizer.
4) If there's no running, no hiding, and there's absolutely nothing to pick up to use, that's when things are incredibly bad, and I fight empty handed until:
5) As soon as possible, run!

}}}}}(C) What if it were a gun instead of a knife (unlikely in the UK, I know, but possible).


Well I live across the pond in the States, so it's a lot more likely here. If it's a gun and he's standing 15 feet away, I'm pretty much screwed. I'll toss him my wallet if he wants that but if he just wants to kill me, I start running away toward the nearest cover, taking a zigzag path to make it harder to hit me. If he pulls it and sticks it right up to my body (close, in other words) I go for the disarm.

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