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#92802 - 04/09/03 01:28 PM Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
Anonymous
Unregistered


As promised on a previous thread, I have spoken to my policeman student about the carrying of kubatons.
It turns out that Khayman and I were both misinformed. They are neither legal even if on a key ring nor is this a "grey area".
Apparently, the law is very specific on this and kubaton are in the same category as nunchukkas; fine if being carried to and from the dojo for training purposes but an offence if carried at any other time.
Just thought I would pass it on.
Sharon

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#92803 - 04/09/03 01:42 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
Khayman Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 724
Loc: Wiltshire, UK
I knew they were are illegal from my days in the police. The grey area is if the police officer knows what it is, many would not. I've even seem kubotan pens made of plastic. The law is the same in the UK for most martial arts weapons, they can be carried to and from a place of practice, they must be carried via a secure means such as a locked bag, so they cannot be accessed easily and you must return straight home after training no detours. This includes stopping off to a bar etc.

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#92804 - 04/09/03 02:13 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
There are certain areas of the U.S. that have similar laws regarding carrying weapons to and from the dojo.

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#92805 - 04/09/03 04:44 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Just to clear up the law in the UK, the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 Section 1 provides that:

"Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, the proof whereof shall lie on him, has with him in any public place any offensive weapon shall be guilty of an offence."

Section 1(4) of the act defines an offensive weapon as:

"...any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person or intended by the person having it with him for such use by him or by some other person."

If this catch all legislation didn't cover it (which in my view it does),the kubotan is specificaly listed in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988 as a proscribed item.

In short its a proscribed item unless you can show that in the circumstances it is not. I think most police officers nowdays would recognise a kubotan and realise that its primary function is not for keeping your keys together.

Regds
Mr V

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#92806 - 04/09/03 07:08 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
A friend uses a length of deer antler, (with or without a perpendicular spike), attached to a key ring. "I just really like deer, officer!"

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#92807 - 04/10/03 07:41 AM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
That's the point really isn't it. The essence of the kubotan is more HOW you use it than WHAT it is. On this basis, a nice thick pen is just as usueful. Another legitimate item is a tube of hardwood with the ends rounded off. Looks fairly innocuous, doesn't have a point on it, made of wood not metal - far easier to pass off as "oh just a bit of wood I had in my pocket after some DIY" That being said, in reference to my previous post on the law, even a toothrush is an offensive weapon if you use intend to use it as such. Obviously proving this is virtualy impossible in most cases and so arguably the "improvised" kubotan can circumvent current legislation as long as you say the right thing if challenged. Not that i'm advocating anything like that of course....

Regds
Mr V

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#92808 - 04/10/03 08:02 AM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Of course not Mr.V. Who would recommend such a dispicable act? Certainly not I [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#92809 - 04/10/03 08:58 AM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
a steel parker type pen works wonders as a kubatan.

And my personal fav, a mini maglite.

"They dont like it up`em Captain Manwaring"!!

Mark

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#92810 - 04/10/03 02:09 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Yes a mini-maglite! My personal fav. Well actualy my personal fav is one of the huge maglites with concrete in it...erm "cough" well, hmm....

Regds
Mr V

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#92811 - 04/10/03 04:35 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
LOL!! I like to use a roll of quarters. You are never broke and the impact with one of these gripped tightly in the fist is great. And afterwards you can go get a burger and stiff drink to calm down. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#92812 - 04/10/03 06:34 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
on the subject of mag lites:-

when I was a police officer, we were often paired up with royal military police (RMP)

On night a load of us were sent to a rave, to break it up. The RMP and me were stationed in a dark field at a road junction, WTF we were supposed to do I have no idea!
Any way a large group of punters walked up to us and we told them that the rave was off and they would be best to go back home etc.

They moved away into the field, and after a short while the stones and bottles came whizzing out way.

It was very dark and I could not see S*it, so I got my torch ready and said to the RMP (who had a 4 D cell maglite at his waist), “right mate lets walk towards them shining the torches into their faces…he looked sheepish and said “ no, it aint for shinning at things, its full of concrete for hitting them with” And it was!!!!

Mark

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#92813 - 04/12/03 01:57 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
Anonymous
Unregistered


My policeman student brought a copy of the legislation to the dojo today and kubotan are actually listed and described in the proscribed weapons section of the Prevention Of Crime Act 1953. Most police officers in the UK would recognise them as Mr V said (not that I thought he was wrong, just verifying for those of you that had a glimmer of doubt). The penalty for carrying such a proscribed item as a kubotan is "four years imprisonment and/or a fine" according to the Police National Legal Database, last modified on 20/03/2003.
As there were so many UK instructors so misinformed (I have been told contrary to the above by two senior sensei), I predict a maglight famine in the UK shortly.
Sharon

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#92814 - 04/12/03 04:11 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
Oldwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 71
Loc: Scotland
Just a quick at on to this:

As you many have sussed its the trade name kubotan that is named so alternatives may be carried at your own risk, the more innocous the better. If it went to court it would have to be proved that the item was intended for offensive use.
Also don't ask a policeman, as pointed out many don't know what you are talking about and secondly, the police enforce the law not interpret it.
so I rest my case, its still better to be tried by twelve than carried by six, but I'm no lawyer.

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#92815 - 04/14/03 02:39 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Ok lets be realistic. This is less a question of law and more one of practicality. It is certainly the case that if you carry another item to use as a kubotan
the the prosecution may have a hard time proving that you were carrying it for the purposes of using it as a weapon. However that, (and this is surely the point) is not the important issue. The important issue is that if you are carrying it in a public place then you are surely going to use it (or why bother carrying it). Therefore let us accept that in the right circumstances, you do use your kubotan alternative. Now we have a situation where you have used an item to cause pain /injury/ compliance. This was an item that you had on you at the time. It is IMO going to be much easier for the prosecution to show that the item was one that must fall under the Offensive Weapon legislation - you had it on you and you used it in a knowlegeable manner (assuming you did) to cause pain/injury/compliance. If they succeed in this then the burden is back on you to show reasonable excuse. Could you? I doubt it in most cases.

Regds
Mr V

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#92816 - 04/14/03 07:41 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
A pen cannot be used for similar strikes, but can be used on its own to increase pressure and penetration as well as nerve point control or strikes.

A good solid fountain pen will do.

It's a pity other people are "carrying" and you cannot, legally.

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#92817 - 04/14/03 07:42 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Err, a pen CAN be used...

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#92818 - 04/15/03 05:21 AM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
Anonymous
Unregistered


So, if I was attacked and "just happened to have a sturdy pen on my person", which I then used as a weapon in the sme manner as a kubotan, could I use the defence that I was in fear of my life and just grabbed the first thing that came to hand? Or would the pen count as carrying a weapon? I was under the impression that this would come under "reasonable force" as long as I truly perceived that I was in grave danger.
Sharon

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#92819 - 04/15/03 07:04 AM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
It all really depends on the nature of the substitute. All items that are not specificaly proscribed are open to interpretation. Obviously a baseball bat with nails in is going to be difficult to justify. If you are carrying an cylindrical steel rod in your back pocket and use it as a kubotan, then this is more likely to be viewed as an offensive weapon than say a pen. In any case regardless of any item being viewed as an offensive weapon, the issue still returns to that of lawful authority or reasonable excuse. Remember the issue here is possession of an offensive weapon in a public place, not its use (yet). It would in my opinion be very difficult to firstly prove that you carried a fountain pen with the intention of using it as an offensive weapon and secondly to disprove an assertion that you had reasonable excuse for carrying a fountain pen. Even if you used it, it would be difficult to dispute an assertion that you just "grabbed the first thing to hand". However if "the first thing that came to hand" was a thick steel rod in your back pocket, more difficult queestions may be put as to why you had it in your back pocket in the first place and the "convenience" of it being to hand just when you needed it. I hope i have explained the distinction adequately.
On the issue of reasonable force, it must be rememered that the two issues are seperate. Reasonable force may well be a valid defence to an allegation that you picked up a knife dropped by one attacker and cut another attacker who had tried to stab you with a broken bottle. Here you have used an offensive weapon in circumstances that could be said to be reasonable. The distinction is pulling a machete out of your trousers and cutting the bottle wielder. Again you may well have acted in self defence, all well and good. However this would probably not assist you in a seperate charge under the Offensive Weapons legislation. In your example Wadowoman,the distinction to the above is that you used a mundane every day item ie: a pen. I would IMO be hard to prove that you intended to use it as an offensive weapon. When you DO use it as an offensive weapon it would not IMO be hard to show that you had reasonable excuse for carrying it ie: you needed to write with it and it just happened to be to hand when you were attacked.
Obviously this isn't the place for legal advice to be given so the above post(s) on this subject have to be taken as simply my personal opinion.

Regds
Mr V

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#92820 - 04/15/03 09:48 PM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
For sale: 6" solid steel ball point pens, with built in key ring. hehehe.
Kuli-tan.

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#92821 - 04/16/03 10:45 AM Re: Kubaton/Ya Wara Bo and law in UK
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks Mr V. I am on the lookout for a sturdy pen as I wish to be preapred in case I need to write everytime I step outside the front door. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sharon

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