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#92335 - 02/18/03 08:53 AM Boxing vs. Wing Chun
CrimsonTiger Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/02
Posts: 346
I'm posting this here because I tend to train my standup fighting for street-fight minded situations. But it's really more of a stylist/strategy question.

Without going into details, I recently sparred a fellow blackbelt who trains with me in karate...and had a rough time with him because he fights like a Wing Chun guy! (I found out afterwards he trained WC for 10 years before coming to karate...LOL!) My personal fighting style is very Boxer/MT with some karate kicking and some KF hand techniques mixed in. Usually very effective, but I've never had my hands tied up so much as I did with this WC artist. Eventually I started using my legs (he has TERRIBLE kicks!) to keep him at a distance and worked him open that way, but my lack of ability to handle him "hand to hand" bothers me.

Other than studying WC, what is the karate or boxing man's solution to a fast-hands style like this? Now (sorry to disappoint you John), this is a light contact sparring situation, so telling me to "hook his head really hard" isn't an option. Are there centre-line defenses that won't tie up my hands or require Bruce Lee-type hand speed to execute? Oh, and can we NOT have this degenerate into a "WC suck" "No! Boxing sucks!" "You suck!" "No, YOU suck!" "Take BJJ bcuz it rox!" thread? Thanks.

Regards,
CrimsonTiger

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#92336 - 02/18/03 10:08 AM Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun
SaNo Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 44
Loc: Singapore
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CrimsonTiger:
I'm posting this here because I tend to train my standup fighting for street-fight minded situations. But it's really more of a stylist/strategy question.

Without going into details, I recently sparred a fellow blackbelt who trains with me in karate...and had a rough time with him because he fights like a Wing Chun guy! (I found out afterwards he trained WC for 10 years before coming to karate...LOL!) My personal fighting style is very Boxer/MT with some karate kicking and some KF hand techniques mixed in. Usually very effective, but I've never had my hands tied up so much as I did with this WC artist. Eventually I started using my legs (he has TERRIBLE kicks!) to keep him at a distance and worked him open that way, but my lack of ability to handle him "hand to hand" bothers me.

Other than studying WC, what is the karate or boxing man's solution to a fast-hands style like this? Now (sorry to disappoint you John), this is a light contact sparring situation, so telling me to "hook his head really hard" isn't an option. Are there centre-line defenses that won't tie up my hands or require Bruce Lee-type hand speed to execute? Oh, and can we NOT have this degenerate into a "WC suck" "No! Boxing sucks!" "You suck!" "No, YOU suck!" "Take BJJ bcuz it rox!" thread? Thanks.

Regards,
CrimsonTiger
[/QUOTE]


well, in my opinion, take up wingchun, its by far the most effective defensive martial arts out there. If the guy u were sparring with u were actually a little more skillful in doing shin/knee kicks as done in wingchun, i'm sure it going to be alot tougher for you.

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#92337 - 02/18/03 11:38 AM Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Wing-Chung isnt really my bag, having only done a little bit for fun and subsidiary training. However, i would suggest that where his advantage is domination of the center line and punching through the shortest route to the target, you (here we bring in the Karate [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]) should not attempt to meet him head on and battle him on his own ground -very "Art of War" I know. Counter his lateral domination with "sabaki" - control the circle, and constantly move to and dominate his blind spot through the most economical movement ie: around the lead leg, furnishing this movement with strikes that compliment the circular movement.

Regds
Mr V

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#92338 - 02/18/03 11:55 AM Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
We study trapping drills, some static, some flow. The flow drills are good because you keep your hands moving all the time, it also gives you good hand speed. We work this alot and then started incorporating this into our sparring. I would train with a Kempo friend and would work my trapping with my sparring with him. He found it very frustrating as well, and felt it was my hand speed that was frustrating him, but in actuality it was the trapping that was hindering him. Once I was pretty confident with my trapping, I started using it with my Okinawan 'brothers' which again worked pretty well. Ttapping is both defensive and offensive and if developed can be a great tool. I too use this as a slow motion drill, to get my hands faster and learn how to use them before I actually get into real sparring. We also use trapping to set up our Jujutsu as well. You can find any trapping drills in Wing Chun, Jeet kune do and Chin Na styles as well. I think its easier to learn the drill than study the whole art of Wing Chun. Before everyone jumps on me for this and real fighting, I use this as a tool in my sparring technique and a drill, to enhance my sparring ability. On the street, a good left hook, does do the trick.

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#92339 - 02/19/03 07:46 PM Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
That's odd. That is the FIRST time that I have ever heard of a wing chun guy giving ANYONE a hard time in a real live spar situation!

Interesting.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 02-19-2003).]

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#92340 - 02/21/03 03:25 PM Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
How to make friends and influence people............

Mr V

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#92341 - 02/21/03 05:05 PM Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'm only stating facts based on our experiences with wing chun guys from different kwoons.

Nothing more than that folks.

-John

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#92342 - 02/22/03 04:53 AM Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Oops CT, looks like John didn't read the "can we NOT..." bit in your post!!!

Having done a little Wing Chun, I found it to be an excellent style for close in fighing. Perhaps western boxing has the advantge when fighting at arms length? I would imaging that boxers will always struggle to cope with the trapping techniques of WC, and fast jabs would be the best way to approach the fight.

Anyway, if you ask me...boxing sucks. I saw a boxer once, and he got beat. It's just not REAL enough...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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#92343 - 02/22/03 10:08 AM Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun
CrimsonTiger Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/02
Posts: 346
*shrug* Ask me if I care if John (or any of the rest of you) tell me I'm a bad fighter because I'm asking about a WC problem? I'm here for new perspectives and answers. Not to piss farther than the rest of you. LOL!

But since it was raised, how do the people in your "train alive gym" handle WC guys John?

Cato, I know...boxers suck bigtime. I mean, look at that pansy-ass Tyson, and Lewis! Don't get me started on what a sucky-baby he is. And that Roy Jones Jr. guy? SUCKS! I don't know why westerners bother with fighting arts...

Regards,
CrimsonTiger

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#92344 - 02/22/03 03:08 PM Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Now we going after poor Roy Jones, and he didn't even say anything. What more do you want he is fighting a heavyweight(though a not good one)and telling everyone how dangerous he is and how Jones could lose in the 1 or 2 round. Man thats drama........However, at one time, Jones was a good technician. What I say is(I know you all want to hear this)is whats wrong with using Wing Chun AND Boxing. I believe its not necessarily the techniques you learn, but the principles of both, and lets face it, both have excellent principles. Learn the principles and apply them to your techniques. Really in Karate, isn't a short punch an uppercut? In the Nihanashi kata's for those who have them, isn't there a hook in the kata? Wing Chun is very defensive oriented, and gives certain people problems, not everybody, not style, but some people. If people have trouble against it, why not see what it has to offer. I am a boxing nut, love to watch all the youngsters especially the Olympic guys, its a past time of mine. To tell you though, that I haven't learned anything is false. I have picked up several principles and insights. We taught one of our girls to jab to the chest as an example. Not all the time, but when it was open. My Sensei wanted to see her spar and put her with an advanced student. After the first jab to the males chest, the ref(I know there are no refs, but this was my Sensei not me)stopped and said no point,, and she had to have focus to the chin. next time the same thing, time after that samething. The ref even warned her about punching the chest with a Jab, my Sensei said it was not a foul. Next punch she jabbed to the chest and the male dropeed his hands to block and the left hook to the head put him down. My Sensei died laughing, she didn't out box, him, out point him, she out thought him. The same girl, same fight, trapped the males hands,lead with an uppercut and Sensei had seen enough. She used both, boxing and wing Chun type trapping in a "simulated"-controlled practice session, not the real thing, but it was the 'lab' and she put her classroom knowledge to work, and it did. So why argue one way or the other, use both!

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