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#91559 - 05/03/02 07:39 PM Kicks in Real Combat?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have a question for those more experienced than myself . . .

Would you use a kick in a real combat situation? I asked my sensei about this and he said it would depend on the circumstances.

I personally feel that a kick would be decent in real combat, but usually if you have only one opponent.

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#91560 - 05/03/02 08:51 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Hell yes! Mae geri to the groin, knees or muscle on the shins....devestating.

I say the use of these kicks would be great with multiple attackers because of their effectiveness.

Side and back kicks are great for self defense.

And stomping and kneeing too.

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#91561 - 05/03/02 09:16 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have to agree. Right now, though, when I workout fighting three or more people, I find it time consuming to kick with any real technique or power as I am constantly interrupted by my other opponents.

Hopefully this is something which can be remedied with experience.

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#91562 - 05/04/02 10:32 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Shadowfax Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Mason City, IA
yeah, I would if the situation was right, but I wouldn't go above the knee in most cases and I'd use it VERY sparingly only if a really good opening presented itself. I tend to close in pretty fast when I fight anyway - I prefer the trapping ranges as most people don't seem to know much about fighting in them [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

when fighting multiple attackers, move quickly and try to get them all lined up with each other - - -if you can do that then you're fighting only one guy at a time while the other attackers are lined up behind him - - I've found that to be pretty effective.

Of course, in real life if three people are coming after me I view that as a life or death situation at which point the knife comes out.

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#91563 - 05/08/02 06:29 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
It depends on how good you are really.
Generaly it's suicide to kick above the waist against even one opponent let alone multiple attackers. As mentioned,knee,thigh, groin etc are all good targets. That being said i wouldn't be adverse to side snap kicking a single opponent in the face if they were kind enough to give me the opportunity at the start of a confrontation. A controvertial statement I know and going against every decent self defence concept but as i said it depends on your kicking ability, the number of opponents and the surface that you are fighting on. Obviously i wouldnt try the above on a wet nightclub floor, but it shouldnt be ruled out. There is something to say for a little showboating against multiple attackers who havent steamed into you yet. A flash finish of one of their number when you have the element of suprise might just save your arse. Thoughts?

Regds

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#91564 - 05/09/02 05:03 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
I think it depends alot on your ability and even more on who you're fighting. MOst adversaries wouldn't expect you to know anyhing fancy. A high front kick to the jaw would surprise him and most certainly take him out. I agree with MrVigerous on that a high side kick is effective. I beleive that kicks such as the high roundhouse and hook could be used in self-defense only if you can throw them very fast, and follow with a hand combination.

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#91565 - 06/14/02 11:51 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Solidus Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 4
Kicks do work in self defence, but only depending upon the situation. It can work either through the element of surprise or through sheer timing and skill. I'd also say have a backup plan if some one ever grabs your leg in a fight when a kicks execution fails.

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#91566 - 06/16/02 04:31 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Niio Gokuu Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 4
Loc: Danville, Indiana, USA
In my experience, kicks are good. What matters is which kick you use and where you place it.

People say Taekwondo is a pretty shabby martial art, but if you have a good, heavy set of boots on and someone's quickly approaching you (in an aggressive manner) or if you're just one strong kicker, a crecent kick to the temple will put the guys lights out for about 20 seconds and if you stick around until he gets back up he won't have the co-ordination or concentration to block just about any relatively qucik attack you have for the rest of the fight (longer, really, but I didn't stick around long enough to find out).

Oh, yea, make sure you're in a relatively dark area if you attempt this. Its probably a lot harder to pull off a crecent kick in borad daylight.

[This message has been edited by Niio Gokuu (edited 06-16-2002).]

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#91567 - 07/18/02 01:37 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Jeniko Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 126
Loc: England
A sidekick is always good too the shin or stomach, but i doubt i'd go any higher unless the opponent was aggressivly running at me or walking towards me in an aggressive manner.

Someone i was sparring with who'd been studying kung fu for some time used front kicks too push me back which i thought was a good idea, as a front snap kick into the chest can definatly put someone into an uncomfortable posistion.


Jeniko


PS: i don't know the names for all the moves so excuse me if any are wrong

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#91568 - 09/30/02 11:41 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Lance Havock Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 4
If you can do the kicks well enough, then of course. but the world is full of people that cannot kick to save their lives, but for some reason their oppinons tend to have more value than thise who can

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#91569 - 10/03/02 02:08 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Kicks are fantastic in real combat.

Turn in the opposite direction and kick your foot out in front of you. Follow up with the other...

I call it running......

Sorry to be silly, but I think the concept has been adaquately covered above..

Budo.

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#91570 - 12/11/02 01:39 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
martial_life Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 72
Loc: Elkton, SD, US
I have had the misfortune of having faced multiple attackers, and yes, i used above the waist kicks against them.
How you train is how you'll usually fight, and in most encounters, you have very little time to think.
As for what i think about it, it depends on your circumstances(open or closed area), speed(can you move if you miss), power(will the kick be likely to take them down or won't it even bother them), experience(have you ever been in a real fight), and your oppnent(s)(how do they fight?dart in and hit?spaz on you?)
It really comes down to the individual. I usually use it to keep me an extra few feet away and discourage them from getting in close.

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#91571 - 12/11/02 03:33 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]I Agree with vig on this oneKeep your kicks low so you can move quikly wiht power to match.& If he's angry his balance will be off & you'll have the upper hand.If He grabs your hand & pulls you toward him,exagerate the movement. So If he pulls you,you go faster & give him a knee.& When you see a target strike him when theopprotnitypresents itself,& Alwyas remain calm & yet ready for anything.So always prepare yrself for a up close & personal when fighting.I Don't Know wht your level is but ya sure ask some good questions,Sounds like your gonna be a good karate ka.

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#91572 - 12/12/02 07:59 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
RedAdrian Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 10
Loc: south australia
btw ,if i remember correctly it only takes about 11 pounds of force to break a human knee joint. (this figure may be wrong cus in australia we use kilogramms)
someone with only one knee is not going to too happy about fighting.
also kicks are really effective for pushing people back ,and i find that they can be really hard hitting (especially step up kicks).
they can also be useful for keeping distance from weapon weilding opponents. taking a few cuts to the leg is better than taking them to the torso when up close.

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#91573 - 12/12/02 03:04 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Sort of. The leg has vital arteries running down it. The torso at least has a rib cage.

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#91574 - 12/13/02 07:01 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]I think it takes 8 pounds,But I cld be wrong.

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#91575 - 12/13/02 10:41 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Shawk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 32
Loc: Colorado
The award goes to joe6pack...

Why, he mentioned the arteries in the leg...he is so close, but I give credit where credit is due...

One very well placed yoko-geri, mae-geri, mawashi-geri, or the best hiza-geri to the mid-point of the thigh...will drop most folks, unless they are on drugs...then you better be running...

joe6pack, mentioned the arteries in the legs....on the side of the thigh, between the knee and hip flexor...basically the center of that zone is something called the siatic nerve...crap folks pay attention, this aint Master Geroge Dillman's one touch, super kenpo pressure point stuff...its anatomy 101

the siatic nerve controls all the ligaments in the entire thigh...it is also the main communication device to the brain for thigh and leg movement...are we getting the picture yet...

If you geri that nerve, the leg shuts down and it aint purty...when you strike a nerve with any amount of reasonable force, the nerve will "lock", the brain's normal reaction is to shut down the affected issue, in this case the leg...how many of you have watched "real" Muay Thai bouts...crap, keep paying attention...not UFC, not WWF...."real" thai fighters in -country....Ok, good have you seen a knock-out scored simply from a fghter hitting a leg....now you understand...pretty simple right?...exactly....those Thai fighters aim for the siatic nerve...I have seen fights in Bangkok, where the victim could not walk for 24 hours after being hit in that location....look at any atanomy 101 book, and you will see where the nerve is precisely located, then memorize it, and then TRAIN your geri's to zero in on that target....If you have ever been hit there yourself, you already know about my speech...it feels like hitting the funny bone on your elbow, amplified by the exponent of 1000....any kick will do it....

Of course one of my favorites is if some shitbird is trying to get his point across, then stomp kick the in-step of his foot and then stomp kick his toes....It is recommended that you accomplish these tasks while Mr. shitbird is swelling his chest and verbally re-enforcing his plans to remodel your life...if you have any kind of boots on....so much the better...

~hawk~

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#91576 - 12/15/02 04:59 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Shawk,

My dojo practices and loves that kick. To the uninitiated, being kicked in the thigh would appear to little damge. Looks are decieving!

Another good one is a point on the outside muscle covering the lower part of the shin - whilst the first kick is devestating, this has a similar effect, but on the movement of the foot. Actually, I giggle with glee when I see someone try to move after being hit with this - looks like someone's got a cattle prod on them!

Would a hiza geri be like "reverse hook kick" or somewgat like a crescent kick which descends or pushes in with the heel?

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#91577 - 12/16/02 05:43 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Shawk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 32
Loc: Colorado
Joe--

A Hiza geri is a knee kick....

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#91578 - 12/17/02 12:32 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Shawk-I can attest to your sciatic nerve kick(we use a big toe to that point as well, or the point of our shoe if we have them on)as I had a sciatic nerve problem in my leg and was paralyzed for about 2 days, could not walk, couldn't even walk into the hospital, had to be carried. The injury was caused by a disc, and the recoupertive period was over 6 months, about 2 weeks before I could get into the dojo. To this day we do not know an exact cause, but when the nerve is effected, you can't walk, straighten up or sit up. It was after this event that we starting refining the kick you speak of

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#91579 - 12/17/02 06:14 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Jeniko Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 126
Loc: England
When in free sparring i tend to use alot of kicks rather than punches, i find it so much easier to use the left leg to kick instead of the right leg. Though now after getting annoyed at only using my left leg i've started to train more with my right, so it's slowing getting stronger.


I'm very interested in this nerve u were talking about earlier, soon as i finish collage tonight im going to look for any infomation on that nerve as im kinda curious about it.

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#91580 - 12/22/02 10:15 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
juliusj1n Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 50
Loc: Ontario
Hey! I'm not the best martial artist but I would say that kicks in real combat can be extremely devastating in conjunction with punches. I learned all my skills from basically just paying attention to everything I see on T.V., the internet... and, I have taught myself what I have seen Bruce Lee teach using videos I have gotton off the net. If an attacker goes to move forward a quick kick on a angle down and towards the centre line of their body should bust any knee cap. After that the attacker should now be on one knee, if not screaming in pain. You could run in for the finishing blow or just leave the attacker know that they will never mess with you again... but, assualt charges could rack up quickly if you bust the knee... so, if you have to kick it, just tenderize it. Follow in with a quick hammer fist to the back of the head... it should knock them out or down for a bit. And I have heard of the nerves in the legs, and I have learned roughly where a dozen are... but, unfortunately the ones I know about are fatal, so I won't say where they are, only that fatal nerves do exist. There are 36 fatal points on the human body. Figure em out, and you own most... but, some of the points won't kill someone for an hour, a day, a month, a year... there is one that is supposed to take like seven years to work... but, I assure you that they do exist..
Live Well, Die Well!
Peace!
Julius J1N

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#91581 - 12/23/02 04:59 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Properly focused side kicks are not the easiest move to use when from a standing position, maybe from side on, and you would run in to finish the opponent off? I suggest you try charging in to begin a coup d' main and see where you end up - probably with a foot slamming into your groin.

Why are you giving tips on nerve points when you don't know where they are?

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#91582 - 12/26/02 06:11 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Ok lets keep it friendly ladies and gents. I've deleted two posts that served no purpose other than to prolong an arguement.

Regds

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#91583 - 01/20/03 04:48 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
gojuTKDdude Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 134
A kick and punch attack would certainly be effective and unexpected to the average street fighter. I would attack with a left hooking punch immediately followed by a right mawashe geri (roundhouse kick) to the knee area. This is a very common attack in Pride and other MMA fighting tournaments.

Be careful when using a front kick in the street... make sure it snaps b/c it is very easy to catch.

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#91584 - 01/23/03 06:30 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
gojuwarrior1 Offline
tougher than you

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 1178
Loc: East Coast, USA
keep it simple,punch high,kick low! never kick higher then the stomach!its to risky.

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#91585 - 02/02/03 06:28 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
*Side kicks are bad for self-defense (turns your hips away from your opponent)

*Kicking should be avoided nearly altogether in street combat (better to use your feet for what God gave 'em to you for -- MOVEMENT)

*"Pressure" cannot be generated while standing on one leg (regardless of how quick you think you are) compared to the pressure of having good "hands".

Train kicks in the gym so you'll have a sense of being able to read them. Leave them at home when you head out however.

-John

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#91586 - 06/16/03 02:58 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
llnohmrel Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 20
i personally, would say it depends on the kick. Like previously said, kicks to the knee are fine, and i am constantly using a defensive side kick to spar (great for people who constantly reach for the head with their lead hand).
However, I would STRONGLY stay away from many kicks to the head. it's all too easy for someone to hook their arm under your leg and trap it against them.

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#91587 - 06/17/03 11:10 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I have had great results in using low kicks in real defense situations. But I keep a very small kick arsenal. This includes:

1. Low side kicks to the knees/thigh
2. Front kick to groin, then slide in with the shin on their groin to give a "shearing" effect (VERY painful, feels like using sand paper on your dong!)
3. Sweeps to the inside of the ankle, forcing it to buckle
4. Side snap kick to the bladder/hips (bladder hit will cause the bowels to empty, the results of which ive explained before, as for the hips, it can put them out of joint and then they are screwed).
5. Inside push kick (usually used at grappling range, and to the knee at all times, from nearly any angle it can put the knee out of joint or even crack it, or if used on the femur bone, will crack it in half if you get it on the right angle.
6. Hiza Geri


And ill leave it at that. These have worked well for me.

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#91588 - 06/17/03 01:29 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
BBB Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/03
Posts: 90
Loc: California
I've never been in an actually self defense situation, but I'd imagine that at the very least you could get a surprise kick in before your attacker realized it was coming.

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#91589 - 06/17/03 09:34 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
The kick is best utilized as the aggressor advances on you. Their attack will leave an opening SOMEWHERE on their body, all you have to do is evaluate where and when to strike.

I highly suggest a low side kick to the knee cap. If they cant walk, they can chase you, thus you can walk away. Fights over.

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#91590 - 06/18/03 04:06 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
I have been trying to stay away from this topic, but I have read a lot of people who have been in real encounters saying that in real combat kicks to the knee (and even the groin) are just unrealistic as the knee is surrounded by a lot of muscle so you will probably only get an effetive strike if the person is standing still. And the groin is often protected as a matter of course.

I will stick to a good straight to the jaw.

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#91591 - 06/18/03 04:07 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Jim Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 302
Loc: Munich
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ender:
The kick is best utilized as the aggressor advances on you. Their attack will leave an opening SOMEWHERE on their body, all you have to do is evaluate where and when to strike.

I highly suggest a low side kick to the knee cap. If they cant walk, they can chase you, thus you can walk away. Fights over.
[/QUOTE]

This is highly unlikely to stop anyone and will probabably result in you getting kicked s$%tless after you've been dragged to the ground by your leg!

The reasons have already been stated, but I would also add its unlikely that the oponenent will be at a convenient distance for this technique, secondly you will need to catch the knee from the side and thirdly if its bent its unlikely to be damaged.

Low kicks/knees to the legs are probably going to work as will stamps & scrapes to the shins. The problem is they are not killer techniques on their own. A sort of stamp/thrust kick off the lead leg is okay.

Kicks can work but only if they are used as part of a combination because you have to be at punching range or less to be able to stop an opponent effectively.


[This message has been edited by Jim (edited 06-18-2003).]

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#91592 - 06/18/03 04:37 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I think you are better off trying to attack their balance, rather than only destroy the knee, because if these don't floor them, they are at a disadvantage and they should be further struck or wrapped up by you

thigh kick

mawashi to knee, low front kicks

thrust kick to the hip

ashi barai/mawashi to calves

I would only side kick if my body was side on anyway, I think.

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#91593 - 06/19/03 01:54 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
SteelPraetorian Offline
Member

Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 48
I don't know if I'd really bother kicking. Kicks, even low ones, just seem like unnecessary risks when your hands are right there. Even when kicking low leaves you on one leg which means you could be tackled. Why kick someone in the thigh when you could punch them in the face? Just makes more sense to me.

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#91594 - 06/19/03 04:44 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Distance

a blow that can give you the advantage you need to end it

although my instinct would be to wrap them up

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#91595 - 06/20/03 08:55 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
SteelPraetorian....

Compare the ammount of damage done between...

1) a Punch in the jaw that just pisses them off and, when adrenaline is rushing, probably wont feel it.

or...

2) a kick to the knee that cracks it in half, disabling their ability to walk (much less fight)


Perhaps youd like to reconsider?

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#91596 - 06/20/03 10:06 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Jim Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 302
Loc: Munich
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ender:
SteelPraetorian....

Compare the ammount of damage done between...

1) a Punch in the jaw that just pisses them off and, when adrenaline is rushing, probably wont feel it.

or...

2) a kick to the knee that cracks it in half, disabling their ability to walk (much less fight)


Perhaps youd like to reconsider?
[/QUOTE]

The problem is landing it safely and keeping balance.

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#91597 - 06/20/03 10:23 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ender:
SteelPraetorian....

Compare the ammount of damage done between...

1) a Punch in the jaw that just pisses them off and, when adrenaline is rushing, probably wont feel it.

or...

2) a kick to the knee that cracks it in half, disabling their ability to walk (much less fight)


Perhaps youd like to reconsider?
[/QUOTE]

Ender, please, unless you have thrown 100 punches to the jaw and 100 kicks to the knee in different real situations, who are you to state what works and what doesn't? Where is your database, the depth of empirical evidence from which you speak? With respect, if you don't know, speculate, but DO NOT STATE.

Alec

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#91598 - 06/20/03 01:01 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
My apologies, I had just woken up, and was not consciously aware I was being critical or stating instead of speculating. Heartfelt apologies to all.

In response, Yes, kicks to the legs require alot of practice to be able to land right, becuase, yes, it IS hard to land properly. Then again, would you agree that anything worth doing is worth working for?

I personally would rather train a technique to disable an opponent, rather than just piss him off further (but thats JUST me speculating).

Yes it is alot of work, but I don't mind that. I'll work both it AND a jaw punch, along with other techniques because every one of them ahs its place and time. It's just a matter of figuring out where and when.

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#91599 - 06/20/03 02:53 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
I've never known my punches to the jaw to piss people off.

At least that's what they tell me when they wake up!

JohnL

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#91600 - 06/20/03 07:08 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
SteelPraetorian Offline
Member

Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 48
Ender, if your roundhouse kick to the knee breaks it in half while your reverse punch/right cross to the jaw merely irritates your opponent, then you have the physiology of a tyrannosaurus rex.

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#91601 - 07/08/03 05:46 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
exceptionist 2 Offline
one arm napalm punch

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 438
Loc: Kanagawa Tokyo, Japan
To kick or not to kick, that is the question.
In a real scenario a kick is ultimately a risk. Given your aiming area, surface, and skill, you are still risking being taken off balance or worse getting your leg caught by your opp. I would only use groin level, shin,and inner thigh, frontal kicks personnally, but high kicks used as fients can set up for finishers.

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#91602 - 07/08/03 08:50 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by exceptionist 2:
To kick or not to kick, that is the question.
In a real scenario a kick is ultimately a risk. Given your aiming area, surface, and skill, you are still risking being taken off balance or worse getting your leg caught by your opp. I would only use groin level, shin,and inner thigh, frontal kicks personnally, but high kicks used as fients can set up for finishers.
[/QUOTE]

Throwing any technique involves risk. It always creates an oppening in your defense and gives your opponent that opportunity to counter. That's just part of the deal.
I can't agree with the use of a high kick as a feint though. There are easier ways of feinting to get a reaction for another technique that open you up far less.

JohnL

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#91603 - 07/08/03 03:11 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Everyone seems so keen on punches to the head.
Great, use the relatively fragile bones in your hands to attack a target that is 90% bone. What do you think a boxer's fracture is?
Kicks can work in a real fight. Someone tries to grab front kick, where are there hands? Is that their throat,eyes, etc. they just left open?

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#91604 - 07/08/03 03:43 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
madhag Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 150
Loc: Seattle, WA
when you use your hand on head targets like temple, eyes, nose, throat, back of head, it's very affective. it's also very distracting and annoying to have hands flying around your head. i agree it's useless to punch the skull with no effective targeting.
i'm a kick person, i think it's very effective. i don't kick above the floating ribs, depending on height. i defended myself with kicks before. it's important to practice power, balance and alignment as the power of the kick can hurt you if done incorrectly.

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#91605 - 07/08/03 03:54 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
madhag Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 150
Loc: Seattle, WA
when you use your hand strikes on head targets like temple, eyes, nose, throat, back of head, it's very affective. it's also very distracting and annoying to have hands flying around your head. i agree it's useless to punch the skull with no effective targeting. when their head is distracted is a good opportunity to kick. i work a lot on body connection to sneak in a surprise syncopated kick while using hand techniques.
i'm a kick person, i think it's very effective. i don't kick above the floating ribs, depending on height. i defended myself with kicks before. i was born with a man's legs in a woman's body [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] it's important to practice power, balance and alignment as the power of the kick can REALLY hurt you if done incorrectly.

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#91606 - 07/09/03 09:55 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
In my opinion, it's all about controlling your opponent
kicks are fine if used to your advantage not your opponents, use a feint to drop thier guard and go high or just the opposite feint high and use a low kick/ sweep.

a high front snap kick can be an effective opener if used with a "distractor"
(cigerette in the face, spit, etc.)
create your openings by making your opponent move thier guard from high to low
also roundhouse(not spin) kicks can be effective as a way to get thier guard off
center.

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#91607 - 07/09/03 06:47 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Isshin Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 480
Loc: Knoxville Tennessee U.S.A
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChangLab:
In my opinion, it's all about controlling your opponent
kicks are fine if used to your advantage not your opponents, use a feint to drop thier guard and go high or just the opposite feint high and use a low kick/ sweep.

a high front snap kick can be an effective opener if used with a "distractor"
(cigerette in the face, spit, etc.)
create your openings by making your opponent move thier guard from high to low
also roundhouse(not spin) kicks can be effective as a way to get thier guard off
center.
[/QUOTE]Changelab forget about distracting,If someone will do you harm you better throw away these highkicks,& Kick to the knee,groin,shins, Thighs,Arch of the ft.PS It's better to disable an opponet,& Leave the highkicks for hollywood movies. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]



[This message has been edited by Isshin Dude (edited 07-09-2003).]

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#91608 - 07/10/03 03:28 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Roger Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 4
Loc: Bremerton, WA
Let me preface this with saying I've never been in a fight and that I just want clarification. Are you folks saying that if the fight got into one of those static positions where you've managed to tie up each other's arms in a graple, and the balance shifted to make it work, you wouldn't try slamming a knee/foot into the other person's groin/ribs/diaphram?

Thanks in advance

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#91609 - 07/10/03 07:21 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Yoseikan Student makes a DAMED good point that many on here would do well to consider. Have you all faced a hundred different opponents and thrown a hundred kicks (punches or whatever)? How is it that you can claim to know what "works" and what doesn't?

I definitely say that kicks are bad news. I say this from my own experience but even more humorously, from having witnessed many people over the years TRYING to kick (and failing bad I must say).

There's NO time to kick in a real fight boys against worthy competition. But hey, don't take MY word for it (heh, heh, heh)

-John


[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 07-10-2003).]

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#91610 - 07/10/03 09:49 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Well said, John,

I like to think that I can kick hard, not very flexible, but a body kick should do….

Well, I got into a scrap at work 2 weeks ago 7 v 2, I hit this rather large body builder with a front kick to the pubic area,(I was being held by one of his mates in a bear hug at the time) it knocked him back a few feet, but he came right back at me!

We survived with only a few minor bruises, but only by pure luck and the intervention of others..

Maybe if I had been able to chin the guy with the kick it would have worked, but it was certainly “red alert “ for a while..

Mark

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#91611 - 07/12/03 03:05 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I would say yes, and I know I am bloody slow, and must use timing to it's full advantage.

Kicks are too easy to counter for an experienced or "seasoned" fighter, so keep em low unless the opportunity presents itself.

And don't kick unless you are fast and have been doing conditioning.

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#91612 - 07/12/03 09:35 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Well, the reason I train ONLY to disable, is that in my surrounds area there are some VERY sick individuals.

Many of the junkies whom you could clock with a damn baseball bat in the side of the head, and they just keep coming, only now they got a smile on their face.

These are the kinds of guys I train for, the guys who arent going to feel if I break their nose or rip an ear or nostril off.

If I break their leg, they cant attack me anymore. So thats what i train for. That along with many other disabling counters (such as eye/heart/spine shots, etc).

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#91613 - 07/12/03 02:56 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Kicks can work for combat if done properly. Any attack is a risk but you have to weigh the risks and the benifits. Punches are faster, leave less open area but they dont have the powere or range of kicks. A equal portion of both with skill in both makes for a good fighter.

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#91614 - 07/12/03 10:37 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Ender, if you clock someone in the side of the head with a baseball bat, regardless of the physiological effects of narcotics, and their head isn't smashed in, go to the gym, or to a baseball coach.

One blow like this should be able to kill most people.

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#91615 - 07/13/03 10:32 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
HKD_Martin Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 12
Good resources on the subject have already posted, just my two cents:

In general my favorite kick in any S/D situation is:

The one that get to it's target.

Low, fast, powerful, and opportunistic(wherever their guard is not).

I have used high kicks in S/D, but looking back, I was a lot younger then- I wouldn't try them now- I've been in MArts long enought to have more options than just the kicks, punches, and combos I knew then.

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#91616 - 07/13/03 11:46 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Joesixpack.

I have played baseball.

I swing hard.

People like this will be REALLY hurt by a hit to the head. But they wont feel it til after theyve rammed a tire iron down your throat.

Their some of the sickest individuals I've ever seen.

Don't believe me? Fine. Though I suggest you Don't come down to my area and pick a fight.

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#91617 - 07/13/03 07:48 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Ender, people have been KO'd and died after being punched or hit over the head with a bottle full of Johnnie Walker.

Kicks certainly have had the same effect.

A full force blow with the business end of a hard aluminium tube to the weakest part of an adult skull will lead to a loss of consciousness and future damage, and quite possibly death.

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#91618 - 07/13/03 08:05 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Ender, aren't you from CANADA? I thought the roughest thing to come out of Canada was Hockey. I like your strip clubs, but I must have missed all those junkies when I was in Montreal. (Admittedly, I was so drunk I didn't know I was IN Montreal until I asked some chick why SEXE was spelled with two "E"s! No matter how cool it sounds, never buy a bus ticket until you sober up!)

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#91619 - 07/13/03 08:10 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
It doesn't matter what level of a persons dementia; a bat to the head will kill anyone and if not then you swing like a toddler.

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#91620 - 07/19/03 07:53 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Shaurya Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/19/03
Posts: 2
Loc: New Delhi, India
I aggree with you gojuTKDdude....I've used a similar combination in a real life situation. I started with a left roundhouse punch followed by a round-house kick with the right leg straight on to the attacker's face. If executed with your breathing under control, kicks can be effective. Best is to use combinations of kicks and punches and keep on moving.
Regards.

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#91621 - 07/19/03 12:53 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
My first MA was TKD so Im used to kicking. Alot. Anyways Ive used different kicks in self defense and Ive found two that work,(for me anyways) everytime. A really fast and hard front snap kick to the ribs/solar plexus area and a round house. Anywhere. I really dont use a lot of low kicks but after a few Muay Thai style to the thighs a good feint into a roundhouse to the head catches alot. Obviously self defense isnt the movies and you arent going to go into a self defense situation and not use your hands however it has been my experience that kicks have their place in defense.

[This message has been edited by Chen Zen (edited 07-19-2003).]

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#91622 - 07/24/03 12:10 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
honor_bound79 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/03
Posts: 40
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vash:
I have a question for those more experienced than myself . . .

Would you use a kick in a real combat situation? I asked my sensei about this and he said it would depend on the circumstances.

I personally feel that a kick would be decent in real combat, but usually if you have only one opponent.
[/QUOTE]

Vash

if your going to kick someone choose very carefully about where you are going
to kick him. My friend got her skull cracked trying to kick someone which shows you how vulnerable you are when you throw a kick. personally i prefer my fists

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#91623 - 07/24/03 04:54 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Look, whatever, don't believe me, but it still makes more sense to me to focus mainly on training to fight to disable and maim my opponent 100% of them time, and then worry about everything else once I can do that well (which I like to think I can).

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#91624 - 07/27/03 03:31 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I'm getting back into this one....(sigh)

I f'in HATE kicks. It's the one thing that tends to fall off the fastest as you age, aside from being the chanciest thing that you can elect to do in a street fight. As Animal MacYoung once said, when you see someone throwing a kick in a fight, it nearly always identifies the person who will first hit the ground (the kicker, in other words).

The only kicks I would rely upon in a fight would be low line savate-style kicks. Even then, if you miss, you're set up for a fall (in more ways than one).

But who the hell cares what I think anyway. Do what you want to do in a fight. Better yet, go have a few in competition with NHB rules and work your kicks. Come back and tell us how it went.

-John

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#91625 - 07/27/03 06:35 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Why I don't think I could land a punch....

Who was the black dude who won UFC a few times in a row....world kickboxing champ?

I use kicks all of the time, and people get hammered by them in the UFC. You sound like you have "issues".

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#91626 - 07/27/03 09:57 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
It all depends on whether your comfortable with your kicks.

That's all there is to it, folks.

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#91627 - 07/27/03 11:31 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I wouldnt say thats all there is to it but it is a good point.

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#91628 - 07/31/03 05:59 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
madhag Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 150
Loc: Seattle, WA
in my experience i have used kicks in self defense against a guy trying to steal a box off my hands. it worked effectively with both hands tied.
to balance myself i sink a bit my standing leg into the ground, and project energy down there as well as to my opponent. I practice my chamber, and alignment for power and to avoid injuries. I work against a heavy bag for resistance and power. In fighting I prefer to use snap kicks than thrusts so my opponent has less of a chance to grab my leg, but I almost always use kicks in combination with hand strikes and footwork. I practice balance on the train or bus by standing free without holding on. Kicks are very powerful and can cause great injury if not done correctly. That's what training is for.

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#91629 - 07/31/03 07:08 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Yes, I have issues with kicks because they are the weakest tool in the arsenal...bro!

I could SHOW you instead of telling you. That's always better in my opinion. People tend to remember details better when they've been SHOWN something. Talk is cheap ya know. We can TALK kicks until the cows come home and tell of all the bad guys we've brought down with 'em. But what does that really do???

As for people in the UFC...how MANY of those fights were actually won WITH a kick compared to number of fights won with punching or submission??? Also, watch how often a kicking attempt ends with the kicker on his ASS!!!!! Wanna talk facts?? Lets go!

-John

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#91630 - 07/31/03 10:59 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I haven't watched UFC in over a year.

The kickers don't end up on their arse if they kick low.

Without the kicks, the opponents would have had a lot more composure and strength. Some of the fights would have gone the other way.

But kicks do make you vulnerable. Your concerns are quite valid.

If someone does a few thigh kicks or to the knee, one the torso, then rushes in and punches or applies a submission hold to win, does that mean that the opponent couldn't deal with kicks, or the winner was sensible and used them judiciously?

Fact; people are put on their arse when kicking

Fact; kicking has been essential for some victories in "caged combat"

I do appreciate you have been training longer than me. As for the street, there are no muggings in my town, but fights start outside nightclubs queuing for taxis. Those altercations are in headbutt distance. In those situations, do as you say, counter the kick, blast them and run. Kicking might be the last theing you do before you run as well.

Do you prefer to get up and away or to counter kicks directly if you are down and the opponent is standing?

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#91631 - 08/01/03 06:43 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
If I'm down and my opponent is up, I definitely want to get back to my feet in all cases whether it's competition or altercation. Me down/him up is not a good scenario for anyone obviously.

I talk of grappling but I have a good stand up game as well. My whole strategy is (like many) to counter my opponent's strategy -- not his attacks!! That must fully be understood! If my opponent is a kicker, I'm going to first create "pressure
and then crowd him and cut the ring/room/alley/whatever off. When inside kicking range, I'm going to put mucho pressure on said hombre so that he won't be able to look up without eating fists (controlling centerline). At that point I'm going to control position in the clinch and work heabutts, knees and elbows. When the fight hits the ground with me on top, I'm going to drop bombs on him so much that he'll have permanent nerve damage in his face.

That sounds brutal but, that's a fight for you. Killer instinct is a part of the fighter mindset (or should be). I always seek to avoid conflict for this very reason.

Hope I didn't get off topic too much. I thought a complete scenario would be worthwhile however.

-John

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#91632 - 08/04/03 09:15 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Good post as usuall JKogas. To be an effective kicker you have to be able to do certain things the main one being keeping your opponent at kicking range. Also you should be able to ground your foot as quick as you can throw it out. So if you do get rushed you can quickly have both feet underneath you. Kicks are overrated but not useless, but they might as well be if you dont have years of experience with them.

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#91633 - 10/02/03 04:16 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
tusk12 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/02/03
Posts: 2
Loc: Healy, Ak, USA
Personally I prefer to hit my oponnets hard and fast. kicks are good and all, but what would you prefer, 1 kick-20 punchs? regardless, a good thing to do is some speed training, like trying to snatch chestnuts(or other hot objects) out of a camp fire without getting burned. its hard to do, but believe me it really improves your speed! the fire provides the "motivation" to get faster. haha.

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#91634 - 10/02/03 04:40 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tusk12:
Personally I prefer to hit my oponnets hard and fast. kicks are good and all, but what would you prefer, 1 kick-20 punchs? [/QUOTE]

It depends.
If I do one kick and it lands, or 20 punches that miss, I'll go with the kick.

It's quality not quantity that counts.

JohnL

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#91635 - 10/03/03 06:58 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
Geoff Thompson wrote a book called real kicking. A short but good read.

Without going into too much detail, one of his points was that if your just an average kicker then don't try them in street altercations. Only if you are an exceptionally good kicker will they benefit you. I think he was talking about high kicks though. (Can't remember-sorry)

This is his opinion-i'm definately not the exception he mentions but i do study tkd and feel that i am better equipped now to land a low kick in a street fight than i ever was. (i find it hard enuf kicking people's heads wearing my dobuk never mind wearing jeans!!!)

Basically use your best weapon. If thats your hands, use them, if it's your feet, use them, if it's both, well you get my meaning.

Big Bear

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#91636 - 10/06/03 01:31 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Just a thought, for those who like to kick
(like me)balance cannot be stressed enough
a good balance excersize is ;believe it or not, spelunking(caving)that is going into a cave and crawling around
it may sound weird but I thought I had good balance till I went caving
When you are walking on rock covered in mud it will show you just how good your balance is.. Just a thought

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#91637 - 10/16/03 01:08 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Remandman Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
In a street defence situation, I would keep my kicks low and powerful. Very basic front kick, roundhouse to knee, thigh. Going high with kicks on the street may be suicide. I would use head kicks only once my attacker is weakened, ready to drop, as a finishing move.

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#91638 - 10/18/03 10:10 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Rand Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 338
For a little amount of time i wondered about the effectiveness of a kick to the siatic nerve

well thursday i sparred with a friend and we got in a clinch i repeatedly kneed his thigh and he let go and almost fell


now im more optimistic about effectiveness of lower kicks

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#91639 - 10/19/03 10:01 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
judodoc Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 152
Loc: Charlottesville VA USA
Wow you guys are really violent.
I hope you would never really hit people with baseball bats etc.
I have two questions for the group
1) How many of you have been in a fight of any kind or know someone who has been in a fight ? OK almost all of us.
2)How many of you know personally of anyone who has been killed in a fight ? ( Not counting Alex Gong or others known through the occasional headline, and that wasn't a fight in the typical sense)

My point is most altercations are really not life or death struggles so learn Judo to deal effectively along a continuum of responses including god forbid a lethal struggle.
I am sure Judo is not the only path to this, just the one I know best.

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#91640 - 11/14/03 10:09 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Isshin Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 480
Loc: Knoxville Tennessee U.S.A
[QUOTE]Originally posted by judodoc:
Wow you guys are really violent.
I hope you would never really hit people with baseball bats etc.
I have two questions for the group
1) How many of you have been in a fight of any kind or know someone who has been in a fight ? OK almost all of us.
2)How many of you know personally of anyone who has been killed in a fight ? ( Not counting Alex Gong or others known through the occasional headline, and that wasn't a fight in the typical sense)

My point is most altercations are really not life or death struggles so learn Judo to deal effectively along a continuum of responses including god forbid a lethal struggle.
I am sure Judo is not the only path to this, just the one I know best.
[/QUOTE]

Spoken like a true moron.Judodoc, If you were to ever have a real altercation,You would wet your pants. PS All mouth,& no experiance = mcdojo. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#91641 - 11/18/03 08:37 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
fugimugim Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 8
Loc: ireland
so people are suggesting not to use kicks for self defence, then why do you practise and practise them for strength, i really doubt it most things in martial arts have there place especially kicks but its my belief that it should be kept simple no jumping spinning backs kicks :P lol.

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#91642 - 11/18/03 12:35 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Isshin Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 480
Loc: Knoxville Tennessee U.S.A
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fugimugim:
so people are suggesting not to use kicks for self defence, then why do you practise and practise them for strength, i really doubt it most things in martial arts have there place especially kicks but its my belief that it should be kept simple no jumping spinning backs kicks :P lol.[/QUOTE]Agreed. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#91643 - 11/20/03 10:11 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Hogtooth Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 78
Loc: USA
The use of kicking techniques effectively in a real street attack situation is possible, but not probable. The feet are best kept underneath you to provide power and mobility and to maintain balance. Sweeps and stomps are effective as they are low enogh not to disrupt your balance as much. They are also applied at a shorter distance to a closer target which diminishes the attackers time to respond.
Kurt

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#91644 - 11/27/03 03:42 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
charles mckey Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 1368

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#91645 - 12/07/03 12:16 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
phil k Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 4
Loc: oh
kicks can be very effective but only below the waist. i prefer targeting pp's around the knees....

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#91646 - 12/17/03 11:09 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I'll kick any target effectively.

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#91647 - 12/19/03 10:53 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Iron-Fist Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/03
Posts: 6
Loc: McCall Creek,MS,US
i am new to this forum, i practice hanmudo and i think one of the most devastating kicks that i would actually use is the inner knee kick.

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#91648 - 12/19/03 10:56 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Iron-Fist Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/03
Posts: 6
Loc: McCall Creek,MS,US
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rand:
For a little amount of time i wondered about the effectiveness of a kick to the siatic nerve

well thursday i sparred with a friend and we got in a clinch i repeatedly kneed his thigh and he let go and almost fell


now im more optimistic about effectiveness of lower kicks
[/QUOTE]

i think one of the most devastating kicks is the inner knee kick

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#91649 - 12/21/03 01:19 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
i kind of think that if you can kick him in the head , then you have the time for a damn fine punch to the head.
Punches has better "travel" "impact" and "accuracy" and are much harder to block.

also "conflict onset" range is normally within optimum kicking range.

I have kicked people in the real world, never been that happy with the result.........


mark

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#91650 - 12/21/03 07:31 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Mark, you're RIGHT ON! How many punches can I throw compared to the number of kicks I can throw? It isn't even close! Considering the greater accuracy, the fact that I don't compromise my balance, the fact that I can throw them in greater numbers, the greater ability to generate forward pressure, etc., really makes punching a far greater tactic for real fighting.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 12-21-2003).]

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#91651 - 12/24/03 03:40 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Remandman Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
In a real situation, keep the kicks low and powerful. Don't go high or you may find yourself hitting the pavement hard with a big mean bastard beating down on top of you.

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#91652 - 12/24/03 05:12 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Remandman:
In a real situation, keep the kicks low and powerful. Don't go high or you may find yourself hitting the pavement hard with a big mean bastard beating down on top of you.[/QUOTE]

Thats a stereotype. But at the same time you should be an exceptional kicker to try high kicks in a fight so I guess its not that big. As for me I feel safer throwing a kick to the head.

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#91653 - 12/27/03 12:39 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I just don't like to kick. It's a personal thing though. Nothing against it. If you can get 'em off and do some damage, more power to you. It's just not my forte.

And I'm an old maine now for crissakes....I caint go 'round throwin' them high kicks like ah use to, don cha know. I gots ta stay on mah feets and use mah hains now-a-day boi! What I look like ova heah anyway, a chicken-hawk?


...Sorry....my spirit was suddenly possessed by Alvin Hodge...an old boxing trainer I used to know in Raleigh, NC.

I just need glass of water....

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]


-John

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#91654 - 12/27/03 02:09 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I started my MA career as a TKD practitioner and an exceptional one at that so my kicks were the first thing I was comfortable with in protecting myself.Having done other things since then Ive been able to step up my hand game as well.

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#91655 - 01/17/04 06:23 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kicks can be used if they are done low...this is where the more vunerable kicking targets are anyways...below the belt..the knee cap, the halfs, inner and outer thigh etc

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#91656 - 01/17/04 09:07 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Id rather take a kick to the leg than to the lower jaw bone. If you can kick properly and with power any area of the body is a target.

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#91657 - 02/05/04 07:28 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Think about shoes. What is your average shoe designed to do? ABSORB IMPACT. If you are wearing shoes, your kicking power just dropped dramatically. More surface area, padding, and it's heavier(SLOWER) than barefoot. Admittedly combat boots are heavy enough to do damage in their own right, but have you tried kicking in them? SLOW. Great for stomping the instep though.

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#91658 - 02/06/04 04:14 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Shoes/boots are why I prefer savate style kicks. If I do any kicking at all, that's how I go about it.

-John

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#91659 - 02/07/04 04:05 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Shoes are good. They are inanimate and feel no pain.

Toes break. Heels can be hurt and ankles can twist.

Round kicks should be executed using different striking surfaces as the situation warrants.

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#91660 - 02/09/04 02:47 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
rookie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 652
Loc: US
JKogas,
What are savate style kicks and how are they more effective than others while wearing shoes?
Incidently, shoes are the reason I wouldn't kick above the waist in a real fight; they make it harder to pivot the supporting foot properly. When I am wearing sneakers or shoes built for traction the pivot doesn't work effectivly ..could blow out the knee. When I am wearing dressier shoes there is less friction than barefoot i.e. causing too much pivot..could cause a loss of balance. And this is before my opponent does anything!

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#91661 - 02/14/04 07:24 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I'm not saying that savate kicks are "better" or "worse" than other kicks. I'd say that it all comes down to the circumstances of the moment.

With that said, the reason I like savate kicking is because it's done with the shoe, and, with the very POINT of the shoe (at the toes --- it was originally designed for kicking with the point of a boot). These kicks aren't designed to go above the waist.

The kick is delivered with a bullwhip-like action. It comes off the ground with no chambering or telegraphing motion. It goes straight into it's target and WHIPS back immediately and set back down.

The striking surface being as small as it is, lends itself to better penetration into the target. It's a very fast kick and extremely effective for the street. As I don't like kicks that require a great deal of committment to execute, these are perfect for me.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 02-14-2004).]

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#91662 - 03/19/04 10:48 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yoseikan Student:
Ender, please, unless you have thrown 100 punches to the jaw and 100 kicks to the knee in different real situations, who are you to state what works and what doesn't? Where is your database, the depth of empirical evidence from which you speak? With respect, if you don't know, speculate, but DO NOT STATE.

Sorry, I watched many fights and very seldom do I see an opportunity to strike with a kick that would disable the knee. The fights that I've watched involved too much movement for a solid kick to land squarely. I am not talking about MMA or kickboxing either.

Alec

[/QUOTE]

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#91663 - 03/19/04 05:47 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE] By Someone here...
Sorry, I watched many fights and very seldom do I see an opportunity to strike with a kick that would disable the knee. The fights that I've watched involved too much movement for a solid kick to land squarely. I am not talking about MMA or kickboxing either.
[/QUOTE]


I couldn't agree more.


Great post, that.


-John

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#91664 - 03/27/04 04:41 PM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think it can work in a self-defense situation just don't earn the reputation as a kicker...or you'll end up having your leg grabbed. You shouldn't go out there with the intention to kick the heck out of your opponent with kicking combos. Concentrate on you hand techniques and use kicking/Knees/Sweeps to compliment them and set them up.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-27-2004).]

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#91665 - 03/28/04 07:44 AM Re: Kicks in Real Combat?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I believe that the primary problem with kicking, is that there just generally isn't the time. In most real fights that I have seen (and understanding human nature), combatants close the distance with each other very quickly, leaving little time for anything other than creating a stable base. You cannot do that while one leg is off the ground.

-John

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