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#91504 - 01/16/03 12:54 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Crimson makes an interesting point. 100%, 100% of the time, and unless you are conditioned you mayhave a stamina problem. Something else as well, you need to slow down and check if you are as technically correct at 100% as you are at say half power. Our technique needs to be sharp, and our basics need to be smooth. Sometimes we need to slow down and check on our technical ability. I saw a student kicking a heavy bag as hard as he could, and was rattling the bag. I noticed his kick was a bit funky but didn't say anything. when Sensei saw the student kick he went by and said try it now and swung the bag at the student, and when he kicked as hard as he could, he hyperextended his knee. His techniqe wasn't ready for full power, he nedded better technical kicks. He found this out with a 3 week stint on crutches. Good solid basics, before 100% speed and 100% power

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#91505 - 01/16/03 02:39 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
Jim Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 302
Loc: Munich
If you have seen Jyu-Ippon semi free kumite in a good Shotokan Dojo you will know what I mean about 'the one hit one kill' thing being emphassised.

Jyu - Ippon in Shotokan is much more aggressive and more like dueling than what I have seen in other styles.

I don't think endurance is a great consideration in most self defence situations as it is not like a ring fight there is little or no 'sussing your oponent out'.

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#91506 - 01/16/03 07:58 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
CrimsonTiger Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/02
Posts: 346
Jim,

True...I've been told many times ring fighting is more "physically demanding" than a streetfight.

Senseilou,

Although I understand the point of the lesson...3 weeks on crutches? It's "training" and "lessons" like that that I prefer to avoid. If you are taught correctly from the start, minor tweaking shouldn't require such drama. In my opinion.

Regards,
CrimsonTiger

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#91507 - 01/21/03 03:59 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
kaliphil Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6
Have any of you been involved in street fights?

Quickly touching on the cardio issue, a ring fight is massively easier to deal with on a CV level. You know that you are participating in a sporting event with rules, a referee and a corner to protect you. On the street you don't have this - you may well be fighting for your life, the adrenaline dump this causes will sap your energy faster than anything in the gym, the dojo or the mat/ring/cage.

Add to this the fact that in the ring you are more often than not fighting a trainied, controlled opponent whose actions you can predict (to a degree) based on their style. On the street you are dealing with punches, kicks, elbows, knees, headbutts, biting, gouging, scratching, spitting, swearing, screaming, multiple attackers, weapons, concrete, glass..... very different. Much more scary.

When you are suffering an adrenaline dump you lose alot of your fine motor control (its amazing how many MA techniques this affects), you will possibly freeze up and you will definitely be stuck to remember a lot of your training. Landing that perfect killer punch is very rare in this situation.

If someone is trying to stomp you into the floor then pulling punches is going to land you in hospital. People take a hell of a lot of damage and I know no martial artist in the world who can throw a guaranteed killing punch.

Scrapes down the shin, pulled punches and blowing in peoples faces will not stop anyone on the street. Hold a no holds barred seesion at your gym and find out how much punishment people can take and still keep coming. If the intent is strong enough they are going to walk straight through your best shots, take the damage and keep on coming.

On the street you hit first (when you think you can no longer verbally control or escape a situation), hit hard and keep hitting until the threat is removed. This will very very rarely take one shot.

One punch, one kill is a myth. Don't hide behind it, test your training, test yourselves but don't believe the myth blindly.

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#91508 - 01/21/03 05:30 PM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim:
If you have seen Jyu-Ippon semi free kumite in a good Shotokan Dojo you will know what I mean about 'the one hit one kill' thing being emphassised.

Jyu - Ippon in Shotokan is much more aggressive and more like dueling than what I have seen in other styles.

I don't think endurance is a great consideration in most self defence situations as it is not like a ring fight there is little or no 'sussing your oponent out'.
[/QUOTE]

I trained in Shotokan and understand the concept within Jyu-ippon, especially when training with particularly good karate-ka, it appears that the initiating attack is "full on" (within training), and thus the resultant defense is of a similar type.

It is the precursor to kumite, a training aid.

Bearing this in mind, the "one strike kill" is an ethos, not necassarily about giving 100%, but ensuring you get the very most out of a technique in a given situation.

This "one strike kill" ethos is often confused. Those who take it literally have not understood the paradox of the MA. The respect has gone.

As far as street fighting it is as Kaliphil said, "I know no martial artist in the world who can throw a guaranteed killing punch." We aim to survive an attack, not kill our attacker, this would make us just as pathetic as them. (if you can add ethics to street combat?? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG])

Budo.

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#91509 - 01/26/03 10:05 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
budda1 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 2
Loc: Fort Pierce,FL 34982
I have heard two stories of one punch kills. The first
A man punches another so hard from the side, fist to side of jaw. Unforunatly the victim didn't see the sucker punch coming and the punch ended up breaking the man's neck! This happened in a prison in Ohio.
the second
A man punches another and knocks him unconsious. As the victim falls to the ground he hits his head on a porcelin toilet and it killed him.

thirdly
A man who is Manic Depressive thinks that a fellow buddy his hitting on his girlfriend. So he just out of the blue punches the man so hard that the other mans eye ball popped out.
The Manic Depressive grabs the mans around the head and quickly puts the eye back in, but the man said all he could see was white in that eye. He wouldn't tell the cops who hit him, when they took him to ER.

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#91510 - 02/02/03 06:21 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I don't think it's a good idea to buy into the "one punch kill" mentality. That one isn't good for your health in the long run...


-John

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#91511 - 02/03/03 01:13 PM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
martial_life Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 72
Loc: Elkton, SD, US
Up here in SD, a man was just recently sentanced to 8 years in jail. He hit another man outside a bar in the face, knocking the man out, but the man hit his head on the ground and died. I say it is a concern.

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#91512 - 02/03/03 03:38 PM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
That was a TWO hit kill then wasn't it? LOL

The point being, it wasn't actually the PUNCH itself that killed the man, but the fall.

If I hit and man and he fell unconscious in a roadway and was then run over, the punch was only indirectly involved in the killing. We're just talking about one hit and then an immediate kill (I suppose). Hell, one punch knockouts are rare when both parties are in reasonable condition!

-John

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#91513 - 02/03/03 04:20 PM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Legally the fact that a person dies as a result of hitting his head on the road or you cracking his skull on account of your punch hitting a congenitively weak area (and him subsequently dying) are one and the same. Most likely you'd be defending yourself from a manslaughter charge. Don't get me wrong i believe its better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 but the question is still legitimate. Full knockouts may be rare but even a partial or momentary loss of conciousness can lead to a person smahing their head on something hard. Once again i must point out that there is always the inherent danger that a full force head shot delivered by a trained individual to a person who is highly inhebriated, possibly getting on in years or simply recovering from an illness could be fatal. The thrust of my post was really to concider whether it is worth utilising high power head strikes in situations that cannot be considered life threatening. For example, in a social gathering, someone who is highly drunk, rude and aggressive needs to be dealt with. Certainly if you are attacked a head shot might solve the problem, but is it worth it? Most of us naturaly train the majority of hand techniques to strike the vulnerable areas from the neck up. Other than the odd solar plexis shot I would suggest that body shots come a poor second in peoples training. I simply wish to moot the point that body shots can be a handy weapon in your arsenal becuase they can cause a knockdown /incapacitation without targeting the vulnerable brain /eyes/throat area.
Regds
Mr V

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