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#91484 - 03/19/02 05:49 PM The one punch kill - potential concern
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Things appear to have ground to a halt on the forum so ill try and kick start it.

This issue is actualy a real concern for me and should be for anyone serious martial artist / self defence practicioner. The question to be posed, is simply this: In certain circumstances are you inviting trouble by utilising a full power head technique. It is not uncommon to hear of some unfortunate being killed outright with a single blow to the head. Certainly they may have been anatomicaly predisposed towards a weakness of have some previous unknown of injury. Neither of these factors will assist you in a court of law if your actions are deemed to excede what was reasonable. Here we get to the gist of the matter. In life and death circumstances / multiple attackers/ weapons etc then sure anything goes and the opponent takes whats comming. What about the opponent who isn't a massive threat per se but perhaps elaborate dismissive techniques (locking, sweeps etc) are not suitable for some reason or another. Is it worth the risk of crashing one into the head of a potentialy untrained, unfit and even inhibriated opponent on the basis that your power and accuracy could prove fatal. Whats the view out there - something to consider or just hit em as hard as you can? - thought?

Regds and good training

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#91485 - 03/20/02 06:48 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
P Carney Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 100
Along these lines, a couple of news stories I saw recently. In Germany, two men got into an arguement about a parking space, which turned into a fight. Appearently, one of the men was a kickboxer and he kicked the other in the head. The man later died from complications.
Also, a girl just recently died when being struck in the head at a hockey game by a puck. How much does a puck weigh? Six ounces?

This is a tough issue. Although it's unlikely that someone would die from a single blow to the head, it's obviously not impossible. However, punching someone in the nose is a good way of making them rethink their position and attitude. Perhaps this afternoon, I'll hunt around for some medical data on headblows and such, to see how much of a blow it takes. I have punched people in the head in fights (oddly, that was before I started MA, and have the power I have now), and, if attacked, would probably do it again.

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#91486 - 03/22/02 09:59 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
On a different but related point, it must be remembered that often, the serious head injury that is sustained after being punched in the head is from the head hitting a hard object such as the pavement. The right or left cross is particularly effective at dropping an opponent like a felled tree to the other side relative to the direction of punch. If you're good enough you can utilise an overhand right or left , driving down through the jawbone which can often make them virtualy sit down, if knockout is achieved and lesson the prospect of their head cracking into something hard. - Just a thought

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#91487 - 07/18/02 02:46 PM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
Jeniko Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 126
Loc: England
One thing that has always confused me is who hits first? My older brother, a huge drinker says that always get hit first and hard so you bleed and you have proof and witnesses who seen who threw the first punch, then you can never be sued for and attack. Is that right? i don't want too be hit all together... i want too go out for a quiet drink with friends and not have too get hit and have a broken nose or jaw just so i can fight back.

I don't know, its weird.

Jeniko

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#91488 - 07/18/02 10:42 PM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Jeniko...your brother lives dangerously!

Avoid fights...or crush your opponent totally in that situation; be that with a choke to unconsciouness, a KO, death or fingerlock. I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six....or being sponge bathed by nurses.

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#91489 - 07/19/02 06:52 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Well in fairness he did say his brother was a drinker lol. The truth is he's probably so hammered that he couldn't avoid the first punch if he wanted too, hense the convenient story. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Regds

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#91490 - 08/12/02 04:50 PM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
NAUMatt Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 68
Loc: Flagstaff, AZ, USA
I think that if you can't find another reason to obstain from fighting as a martial artist (which would already be a sad case for the poor fool), this is a great reason to rethink striking someone without just cause ("just cause" is always open for debate as well, but I see very closely along the lines of the philosophy taught in "Living the Martial Way," a great book for those who haven't read it [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] ). At any rate, I know that in my training, while we didn't necissarily learn pressure points, we where taught to aim for weak spots (i.e., throat, solar plexus, etc.). I'm sure most other martial artists where taught somewhat along the same lines. This becomes a frightening prospect when thought about in terms of true application, for if I were put in a situation that I had to defend myself, instinct would kick in and the odds of maiming/killing someone in that first instinctive blow would be fairly high. I don't know about you, but I sure don't want that kind of weight on my shoulders.

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#91491 - 01/13/03 12:11 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
roundhouser Offline
Member

Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 96
Loc: melbourne
If people can die from being hit in the head what do u do so that you can still protect yourself but without killing your opponent.

by the way did P Carney get that medical info on it?

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#91492 - 01/13/03 04:28 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
Jim Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 302
Loc: Munich
[QUOTE]What about the opponent who isn't a massive threat per se but perhaps elaborate dismissive techniques (locking, sweeps etc) are not suitable for some reason or another. Is it worth the risk of crashing one into the head of a potentialy untrained, unfit and even inhibriated opponent on the basis that your power and accuracy could prove fatal. [/QUOTE]

First off you should avoid these sorts of situations which lets face are most likely to occur on Friday/Saturday night. Secondly one of my old instructors had an interesting take on this: you don't know why someone is behaving like that, maybe their wife left them etc and now your going to add some serious injuries to their problems. If you've had time to suss out their not up to much you can probably tailor your response.

That said...

I think you have to get it over ASAP as the longer your trading blows the greater chance of serious injury to you or the attacker, also the luxury of refraining from extreme force may disappear.

It is better all round the faster the violence is over so I would try to use something that stopped them as fast as possible while avoiding the risk of injury as far as possible:

The techniques have to be things that don't require massive amounts of force.

A good body shot (solar plexis) or a back fist/slap on the nose, shin kicks to the thighs etc if all else fails go for a classic KO to the jaw as this is unlikely to really do much lasting damage.

Be prepared to catch them as they fall. I once KO'd someone at a grading that didn't really do much damage, however the floor did.

I suppose the point is you should be able to stop the sort of person you've described wanting to fight without really hurting them.

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#91493 - 01/13/03 10:42 AM Re: The one punch kill - potential concern
CrimsonTiger Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/02
Posts: 346
Jim has a good point in that post of his...open hand techniques. Nothing has ever stopped me as quickly as a smack to the nose or an open-handed backfist to the nose/mouth area. We all know the average person doesn't like getting hit in the face and instinctively pulls away. I do it to my pets (dogs in this case, cats in my ex-gfs) all the time (no! Not hitting them! :P) but try blowing in their faces. They have a natural instinct to pull away and rub their faces checking for "damage" before coming back for more. Its an unsettling sensation.

Another point. Personally, if I thought I were in trouble, the LAST thing I'd do is punch to the head...not so much because I'm worried about their well-being, but because no matter how trained I am, I KNOW a small mistake is going to mean a shattered hand, wrist or worse. That's one BIG bone on our shoulders...and damn hard, even on the jaw! Unless you're really sure about that hit, I wouldn't risk it. There are far more vulnerable parts of the body I'd go for such as the stomach/ribs, thighs, shins, groin, feet, knees.

In short, headhunting is good in sparring/ring fighting because you're LOOKING for the knockout. But in REAL fighting, it's probably not a great option.

Regards,
CrimsonTiger

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