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#91462 - 03/03/02 05:11 PM driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
mailorderkidney Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 4
i'm sure everyone has heard about the palm strike to the nose killing someone by driving bone fragments into the brain. i've always just dismissed that as myth... anyone want to confirm that?

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#91463 - 03/03/02 06:14 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Hmmm - well not being a medical man i can't say for sure, but im fairly certain that the anatomy of a human being makes it impossible to drive slivers of shattered nasal bone into the brain. Though this is an oft touted method of dispatching people on the big screen im damn sure its a myth. If anyone can show me that im wrong then i'd be glad to be corrected. In any case the palm heel strike to the nose is still a good technique.

Regds

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#91464 - 03/04/02 02:57 AM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
It's damn near impossible as you need to break the bone ABOVE the cartelige (spelling?), and then ram it up on what I would call a "rude" angle, you cannot genrate much force in this way.

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#91465 - 03/07/02 04:15 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
Oldwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 71
Loc: Scotland
Complete myth, I thought that this 'Hollywood' / james Bond crap had been dispelled years ago.
What bone in the nose?
Read mashiros (sp?) 'The black art of death' which may give some viable explanations for the myth such as striking the inter maximilary suture, and severing the spinal column.(possible if you strike them horizontally with a machete)
You don't hear about many contact fighters gloved or otherwise dying from this mythical blow do you now?

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#91466 - 03/13/02 03:37 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
Oldwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 71
Loc: Scotland
Wot no takers!.

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#91467 - 03/16/02 05:00 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
JediKungFu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 8
Loc: Fairborn, Ohio, USA
This reminds me of Jack Nicholson in Con Air somewhere around the beginning. Him and his wife(from what I remember) were walking out of a bar, were jumped, and since Nicholson was in the Military and hit the guy in such a way that the nose bone shot straight up the guys brain and killed him. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Anyways, I believe it COULD be possible. For what I think, it really depends how the fight it going. Plus Anatomy you gotta think of. The way the bone structure is built it seems like it could be really hard to do. Somebody could develope enough force if they had the right amount of momentum.

~Ashley

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#91468 - 03/16/02 05:01 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
JediKungFu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 8
Loc: Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Ack! Sorry about my first post before this. I think I meant NICHOLAS CAGE and not JACK NICHOLAS(I'm thinking of a golfer I'm sure of) ah, what the heck. Just pardon any mistakes I have. Thanks

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#91469 - 03/17/02 12:38 AM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
Harpoon Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 4
Actaully its not, something similar to it is incorperated into the US Marine hand to hand combat system. If you find yourself in an unarmed confontration with an enemy you need to take them out as fast as possible. One of the exercises is a reaction towards the standard "arms outward to wrap around your neck and choke you" opponent. In this you grab one of the arms on the inside of the wrist with one of your arms, then use your other to apply pressure to the elbow and lock the arm, pushing downwards to force your opponent into a hunched over position in which you break the elbow, kick them in the face then use the same leg to sweep/trip their legs out (all the while holding onto the arm) and ram the heel of your boot into the bridge of the nose...im not sure if its called the bridge, its the area right above your upper lip and directly underneath the nostrils (try putting your finger there, you can feel a crease). This shatters the bone and causes death.

[This message has been edited by Harpoon (edited 03-17-2002).]

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#91470 - 03/17/02 12:31 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
Oldwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 71
Loc: Scotland
JediKungFu - you wanting to believe doesn't make the technique any more real, palm heel to the chin or half fist to the throat aremore realistic.

Harpoon - The area you describe is called the philtrum and the crease you can feel is the intermaxillary suture, blows to this area will break upper teeth, may cause concussion to the brain as the is a solid conection (maxilla), but unless the blow is hard enough, focussed in that small area, and causes the small bone (dens) that keeps the head on the top of the spinal column to sever, death will not occur unless your marine boot heel has completely crushed the skull and brain, despite what they may have said at boot camp.

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#91471 - 03/17/02 05:10 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Spot on Oldwolf, thanks for such a precise description.
Once and for all I think that we can consign the mythical "nose through brain" palm heel strike to the same hellish dustbin of dire and unlikely techniques as overhead x-blocks to stop downward knife attacks and dropping you weight to the floor to get out of a standing full nelson.
Not wishing to pore scorn on the US Marine unarmed combat programme, but anyone who attempts (Quote) "arms outward to wrap around your neck and choke you" is a cretin and should simply be taken out. In doing this I would make two points.(1) The combination that you describe is a little over elaborate when (Quote)"you need to take them out as fast as possible" and (2)in a battlefield situation with an army boot on, you'd probably not bother / have a job hitting such a precise spot - when in any case crushing the skull with the heel stamp has been a standard battlefield finishing move taught since WWI.
Regards

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#91472 - 04/16/02 04:21 AM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
omegapoint Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/01
Posts: 150
Like 'Wolf said- 100% myth! A severly broken nose can often begin to end a fight. I've seen these types of strikes decide who was the arse kicker and who was the kickee in a street fight! Ouch!

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#91473 - 05/02/02 05:58 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Wow! What a lot of different opinions! Well, my opinion is that it is possible! Enough upward force to the bottom of the nose can shatter the bone, and yes, the cavity does connect to the brain, so why wouldn't fragments of bone be sent into the brain??!

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#91474 - 05/03/02 06:28 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Because there is more bone in between your fragments and the old grey matter. It is not just cartilage with your brain floating happily behind it. I am 100 % convinvinced that this is impossible to achieve with an anatomicaly normal human. If it were possible, professional boxers would be dropping dead like flies from taking uppercuts that connect with the point of the nose. I am willing to concede that if you used a sledge hammer you might have some joy, but otherwise i dont think you can hit hard enough to break through the intervening bone mass.

Regds

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#91475 - 05/04/02 10:27 AM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
Shadowfax Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Mason City, IA
Well, you CAN break the nose in such a way that fragments could potentially get into the brain. You have to first do a side strike (as in a backfist to the bridge of the nose) - -that breaks the bone, at which point a palmheel would send it up and backwards. Problem is I have never seen evidence that this would KILL someone- - at best it might remove their sense of smell or some higher reasoning functions. You'll be sending these bone fragments into the base of the front and bottom of the brain. The olfactory tract and olfactory bulb are there so it's possible you could sever the olfactory tract and remove their ability to smell things. I suppose you could also hit the cortex at which point they might have some psychological programs- - -but the stuff that regulates life itself - -heartbeat, breathing, etc. . you'd have to drive those nose fragments way back into the rear of the brain - -to do that you'd have to get a sledge hammer and bash his face in. . .

I think this myth arose from the idea that if you stab something into the brain it WILL cause death. That idea is wrong, as a British railroad worker was good enough to prove when he somehow managed to drive a railroad spike through his head. He survived, but the spike went through the areas that control personality, and from what I've read it turned him into a royal jerk.

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#91476 - 06/16/03 03:08 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
llnohmrel Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 20
when i started isshin ryu i was given a handbook. it lists five areas to kill:
- spine
- kidney
- heart
- nose
- temple.

After nose it says to strike in an upward motion with a palm heel. shards of nose go spike the brain. brain dies.

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#91477 - 06/16/03 04:20 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Er well if you are ever short of kindling to start a fire id suggest you turn to that handbook then.

Regds
Mr V

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#91478 - 06/16/03 06:36 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrVigerous:
Er well if you are ever short of kindling to start a fire id suggest you turn to that handbook then.

Regds
Mr V
[/QUOTE]

Damn. You beat me to it [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#91479 - 06/16/03 08:44 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Youve lost your touch, JohnL!

Mr. Moderator beat yah to the punchline.



[This message has been edited by Ender (edited 06-16-2003).]

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#91480 - 06/17/03 09:06 AM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth?
Kotetsu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 314
Loc: Hollis, NH, USA
The nose is almost completely composed of cartilage, thereby making it impossible to sove it into the brain. A blow that is hard enough to get it the far would just destroy the cartilage. Besides that the cartilage is attached to the skull. That being nose strikes still hurt and all but no kill.

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#91481 - 02/28/09 02:16 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth? [Re: mailorderkidney]
jgill12775 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1
I have just finished yet another book where the heroine female Rambo type escapes by driving her attacker's nasal bone into his brain. What a crock. I have been a surgical physician assistant for 34 years and a long time student of the martial arts. Absolutely impossible to kill anyone by this method. The anatomy of the skull won't allow you to do it. To get to the brain you would have to drive a very thin piece of bone through a very hard and thick piece of bone. Here is a little experiment - take a 1/16th inch thick piece of triangular shapped wood, it can even be a hard wood like oak, set the base of the triangle on a piece of 2X4 and taking another piece of 2X4 start tapping the pointed end (you don't even have to smash it - unless you just want to) What happens? It splinters and doesn't even scratch the 2X4 that you are trying to drive it into. However, it is an excellent technique to convience an attacker who has grabbed you, to let you go. You will break the thin nasal bones and he will be disoriented enough so that he will let you go long enough for you to depart the area.

Jim Gilliam, MPAS, PA-C
MEDICAL OFFICER
USNS ARCTIC T-AOE 8


Edited by jgill12775 (02/28/09 02:31 PM)

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#91482 - 02/28/09 03:05 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth? [Re: jgill12775]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Thanks for the medical insight, Jim.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#91483 - 02/28/09 08:27 PM Re: driving the nose bone into the brain.... myth? [Re: jgill12775]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Yes, thanks a lot for that Jim, nice to get an informed opinion on this stuff.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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