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#91254 - 11/02/01 02:42 PM Brute Force or Skillful Technique
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Some have said that one of the keys to winning a fight is being able to hit very hard.

Some have said that it is more which techniques you employ.

So is the key strength or the application of technique ??

Any thoughts or ideas??

Budo.

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#91255 - 11/02/01 06:11 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Ishinguy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/01
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Interesting point Judderman. I am a beginner in Karate and have always thought that brute force was the way to go and I still feel that that is often the effective way especially if you are more powerfull than your oposition. But recently our Sensei showed us some Akido moves and I was quite impressed with them, while they did take a little skill , they weren't really all that complicated and took very little physical effort.

[This message has been edited by Ishinguy (edited 11-02-2001).]

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#91256 - 11/04/01 07:10 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
I think someone of note once said " in a fight between an 8 stone black belt Karateka and an 18 stone Irish welder (why Irish i dont know, any welder would do)- put you money on the welder" I presume this to mean in a conflict between skill and a massive advantage in weight and raw strength, put you money on weight and raw strength. Is this really the case? Well frankly i'd have to admit to saying that it is. Skill and the application of technique will only get you so far. Sure when coupled with power it can be deadly, but without power, it might well be somewhat pointless. To illustrate the point, if I (being quite tall and well built)
were to fight an equaly skilled opponent, for example a women, who weighed very little
then the odds are massively in my favour, for no other reason than I hit much harder and can accept harder blows. Even if you take my skill out of the equation, she's still quite honestly in a fair bit of trouble.Sure I train heavily in technique, but i damn well push weights and hammer the heavy bag as well because at the end of the day, making sure that when technique allows you to "punch your weight" you have some weight to punch with is more than vital. On a side note to Ishinguy, intersting though Aikido is as a martial art, it relies heavily upon receiving the commitment of others and redirecting it. I've seen very few Aikidoka capable of doing much in the way of aikido when confronted with a technique such as a locked karate reverse punch that offers them nothing to redirect.
Regds and good training


[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 11-04-2001).]

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#91257 - 11/05/01 08:38 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
P Carney Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 100
I think that, in most cases power and size will beat skill, but there are exceptions. I've trained with MA teachers who I have almost 100 pounds on that would eat me for lunch.
How about speed vs. power- which is likely to win a fight?

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#91258 - 11/05/01 02:50 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
I am inclined to move toward technique. Why?
A foil can parry a katana. This has nothing to do with the strengh of either, but technique.

In all of this I would have to say that strength plays an important part. I am taught personal defense moves. These are are taught to a variety of skill level. The moves themselves rely mostly on the application of technique than strength. In my training however I have learnt that a degree a strength also adds its advantage.

Perhaps the question should be, how do we learn to hit hard?

To do so must involve some level of skill, to be effective.

Budo.

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#91259 - 11/05/01 06:08 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Entirely my point Judderman - learning to hit hard is all important, and obviously this is where skill and technique come in. Speed is obviously important too, as is targeting. However, if you have all of the above but little in the way of power to back it up, you might as well not bother. Hitting someone with speed and accuracy on the point of the jaw is all very well, but if it just rock them because you can't hit to (perhaps literaly) save your life, then your in a world of hurt.No doubt raw technique will increase your punching power over the layman, but strength though not the be all and end all must be IMO a prime consideration in impact martial arts. Those who insist otherwise tend in my experience to be afraid of this truth on the basis that it may appear to exclude certain members of society from undertaking effective martial practice. I certainly wouldn't advocate that as such, but if it looks like a horse and runs like a horse its probably a horse.

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#91260 - 11/06/01 08:26 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Jim Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 302
Loc: Munich
I think that there are 2 things we should also consider:

1 Set-ups Vs More isolated blows

There are not so many fighters who can tag someone perfectly. However there are lots who can use a good jab to open an oponent and then use subsequent blows to set up(move the head/body of the oponenent)for the coup de grace.

I watched a Yoshinkan Aikido demonstration the other day and in this style they did essentialy the same thing by throwing or locking the opponent and then finishing them from a position where they could take the time to make sure that a blow finished the opponent.

2 Skill Vs Brutality.

Self explanatory really I think the fighter prepared to be more brutal will usually win.

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#91261 - 11/06/01 09:10 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
P Carney Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 100
So does power come from speed or the ability to put your weight behind a blow or both?

Ironically (or perhaps not) power seems to come from proper (and skillful) technique. That is, if I don't throw the punch correctly, without the proper angle, base, whipping motion, etc, I can't get the full power out of it.



[This message has been edited by P Carney (edited 11-06-2001).]

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#91262 - 11/06/01 10:48 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Shadowfax Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Mason City, IA
the answer to the original question is both. You need power because you can have all the technique in the world and not survive if your punches wouldn't hurt a fly. You need technique because applying the power to ineffective locations is pointless and will just enrage the enemy.

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#91263 - 11/17/01 11:58 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
After a recent sparring training with Swordfish, I am inclined to look more towards power conrolled as the answer.

Why?
Well, during my training I got my butt kicked!! I was out gunned and out skilled!! I spent most of my time in defense!!

The few strikes I did land were a bit rough for training, but also missed. Where they landed obviously hurt. So in theory, I won, by power.

So my concerns again direct themselves toward how do we generate this power effectivly?

I know what my karate training states, but we've already seen the comparison with the welder.....

Budo.

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#91264 - 12/23/02 02:12 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
juliusj1n Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 50
Loc: Ontario
If you can't hit your target, what good is power? Skill, speed, and power go hand in hand. Skill gives you the ability to efficiently fend off or mount an offensive. Speed is just how fast you can move. But, speed goes with power for more of a snapping punch which increases force. It's just a law of physics. It takes a lot of energy to get a fist moving at fast speed. When that energy connects with the opponent, the effects can be devastating... But, what I have learned is that most people don't properly channel their strength. But, a hard hit is a hard hit, and a fast fighter is a fast fighter, and a skilled fighter is a skilled fighter. All three together make one h%&! of an adversary. But the most important thing to me is is mental ability. If they have a strong enough mind, they can block out the pain, will an adrenaline rush, and strategize like nutz. If you don't agree, you don't agree, but this is just my opinion.

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#91265 - 02/11/03 08:35 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
A civil war general said that the winner is "whoever gets there firstest with the mostest."
Don't fear a big man, or a fast man, or a man with great skill. But fear a big fast man with lots of skill.

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#91266 - 02/12/03 12:49 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Budoka Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/02
Posts: 120
Loc: Frankston Victoria Australia
Balance + Technique + Breath + Speed + Acuracy = Power
I don't see how effective power can be generated without all of these 5 components.
Just My Opinion
Yours in Budo

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#91267 - 02/12/03 03:40 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
roundhouser Offline
Member

Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 96
Loc: melbourne
When i did TKD my instructor told me that speed is 3 times more powerful than explosiveness and speed comes with skill so i'd say use both but a skilled man would probably win.

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#91268 - 02/12/03 06:32 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
mikelw Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1031
Loc: Bothell, Washington (not DC), ...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Budoka:
Balance + Technique + Breath + Speed + Acuracy = Power
I don't see how effective power can be generated without all of these 5 components.
Just My Opinion
Yours in Budo
[/QUOTE]


did you forget about MUSCLE?

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#91269 - 12/18/04 06:46 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


POWER = STRENGTH x SPEED !
brute force can help to a certain degree, but you must have speed, if you are quicker than your opponent he cannot hit you and you can hit him, there is no point in having strength if you cannot actually land a punch on someone, if you have a lower degree of strength but can land multiple simultaneous punches on the opponenet you can win, so i say speed and technique over braun

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#91270 - 12/18/04 10:52 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Torque( Hips ) + weight = Power!
Ed

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#91271 - 12/18/04 11:44 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


Torque + weight + speed + proper body alignment = maximum power

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#91272 - 12/18/04 12:24 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


it doesn't matter how hard you hit if you can't hit your opponent. you shouldn't rely on strength alone to win a fight for you. You need to be observant in a fight. If a guy throws a really hard punch at you and you step to the side, you have the upper hand. He's off balanced, out of energy and he lost his control of the fight. Good luck trying to recover from that. It will be nearly impossible no matter how strong you are.
Your friend is probably a typical non-MA kid.

-S.O.B.

[This message has been edited by DullBlade42 (edited 12-18-2004).]

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#91273 - 12/18/04 12:54 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have always thought that experience is the best teacher, so I would say I favor skill over brute force any day. I would bet on a smaller skilled, experienced fighter over the big know absolutely nothing "hockey fighter" any day.

There is another component that comes with experience as well, or some are maybe born with it. That is the mental attitude of the fighter, inexperienced fighters tend to be more defensive of themselves and often even squeemish about hurting the other fighter as well.
The experienced fighter is not thinking about defence so much it is second nature to him to be covered up, and trying to strike from his "safe" stance. He knows wich stikes to take, wich to avoid and how etc.. He is thinking about hitting, not about being hit, and he expects to take a few along the way. It is a very important distinction, if you are thinking about getting hit you WILL get hit more often.
Experienced fighters will also keep going through a hard punch or kick. The less experienced guy is more likely to slow or at least flinch more. Many will simply duck and cover after recieving a hit that a more experienced fighter might not even notice.
I guess what I am saying is there is the FEAR factor, only experience will help with this area.

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#91274 - 12/31/04 04:55 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MattJ:
Torque + weight + speed + proper body alignment = maximum power[/QUOTE]

I would have to agree on if you get your man off balacen you pop them once it may suprise and or stun tem iw as at a party and we was sparing "boxing" n e way sspared htis one guy who out weighed me by at least 60 to 70 pounds he swung i moved poped him and stunned him good enough fo me to get him again and drop him

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#91275 - 12/31/04 05:10 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


What is this? A math Class?
Power = I'm standing and you're not!!

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#91276 - 12/31/04 07:17 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


Power + Speed + Preparation + Motivation divided by Opportunity = Fighting Ability

I was told there would be no math.

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#91277 - 12/31/04 08:30 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


1st rule of SD. If you have to hit someone, hit them bloody hard.

"Brute" implies ignorance. How about appropriately applied power?

In a real fight, hit like crazy. It isn't sophisticated but it is the real world.

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#91278 - 12/31/04 01:59 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


Try to think of it this way even Military trained soldiers are taught never to oppose strengh but redirect it. Power does add a advantage but if the power gets redirected even slighty that can get you killed in a real fight. I would have to say based on experiance that technique over strengh wins.LOL I like the welding thing though but who says the karateka isnt built like a brick shithouse. If you are a small person and dont have alot of weight behind your strikes, then utilize anatomy strike to the eyes throat groin etc. Throwing methods also are used to overcome strengh. In the real world people when they engage in real violence rarely go hand to hand anyway, in other words to a skilled attacker your strengh dont matter all people bleed the same when shot or knifed.

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#91279 - 01/01/05 11:10 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Skill everytime. Some areas of the body do not require powerful attacks. All techniques require skill to be delivered.

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#91280 - 01/03/05 11:59 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


Strength, Size and Power is a good tool, and an important one. Just remember, that as we get older, the law of diminising returns and old age takes effect.

Carl Cestari is a fairly big guy and can blast a fist sized whole through anyone.
from his years of training, He is still very strong in his delivery. That is from skill.

In training in Tai Chi, Sigung Hsu Fun Yuen is not a big man, However, he can deliver incredible power from his frail frame to repuse even the biggest of his grand students. That is definitely skill, True kung fu!

Recommendation?

Work both powerful execution and skillful execution.

A strong powerful person with good amrtial asts skill is a dangerous martial artist.

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#91281 - 03/17/05 04:47 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was told this. Strength=power and Speed=power. Its not just phyisics but, its logic. If u are stronger then u can hit hard. Just as if u throw a rock at 70mph it will hurt more than 2. )8^)

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#91282 - 03/17/05 05:03 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
I am going to go with "brutal" force "skillfully" applied.

Why settle for one when you can have both?

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#91283 - 03/17/05 05:19 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hit hard with a good technique? They're both important. If you're flailing about throwing really hard punches everywhere you're never going to hit a trained opponent. But if you aren't physically adept at all then even if you do make contact it's not going to have much of an effect.

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#91284 - 03/17/05 05:43 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


A properly formed technique and a forcful technique are by virtue, the same thing.

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#91285 - 03/18/05 10:38 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


I seen smaller people whip the crap out of bigger ones. Know how, Speed, accuracy and tenacity counts.

I'm 6'3 225lbs and I hate sparring or fighting smaller faster people and of course larger faster people as rare as that is.

Big large powerful slow people are no real challenge unless, they get lucky. In the past it seem that they get hit too often and too fast. And can't get up fast in most cases, thats bad news in a sf.

In fighting you if make a major mistake it can be an opening that can ruin your day.

I'm a heavyweight with middle weight speed and hw power so I can match well with most people. But a lighting fast light or middle weight with good power is someone to watchout for out of the gloves.

Little boxers with no power in their punch are in trouble, but the advantage of a Martial artist is I've never seen a small guy that couldn't hurt you with an headbutt, elbow, knee, head stomp or kick to the knee/groin/throat.

Its hard to avoid what you can barely see, and what you don't see is what hurts you.

Any real fighter can brace or turn out of the heavy slots that you can see or sense, but if you don't it hurts, your knees sag, you know the drill.

It's always been said that a good big man, will beat a good small man 9-10 times. But if the skill level is in favor of the smaller man, I think it evens the odds 6-4 smaller guy. There are some cases that sure weight can change the odds. But when you are talking Mid-size 150-170lbs men vs. the 210-300lbs men. There are some mid size guys that hit like the weigh 250lbs!

One of my Instructors would always say that in life as in fighting, the Matador does not always kill the Bull, the Bull sometimes gets his horn in.



[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 03-18-2005).]

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#91286 - 03/18/05 04:42 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


Isn't the purpose of technique (in striking arts) to increase the power of a strike? If so then someone who has natural strength in their strike can match someone who has less power but more technique. They are two sides of the same coin (but having both is better than having any individual one).

In grappling, because of leverage, imho technique outweighs strength in importance. However when evenly matched in technique, strength determines the outcome.

[This message has been edited by Leo_E_49 (edited 03-18-2005).]

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#91287 - 03/19/05 06:17 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'd have to go with Brute force. I knew this one kid in fifth grade who got into a fight and won because of strength. He smashed the kid's face off of a table and punched him a few times and he won. He recently tried to rob Papa Carones at the age of 16. Now he's under house arrest. Anyways he had a fight this year and smashed the kid because of his strength. Brute Force all the way.

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#91288 - 03/19/05 08:54 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


How about putting it this way:

Strength, speed and mass (natural body characteristics which can also be increased by training) determine the upper boundary of power in a technique. Skill determines how close to that upper boundary someone can get.

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#91289 - 03/20/05 06:27 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Anonymous
Unregistered


Id say a combanation of both and speed too. I know someone that could kick serious ass at 300lbs, but when he got back down to 220lbs and still working out, he was a monster. Speed, power and technique all have a major roles, Just finding the best combanation of them is the hard part.

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