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#91254 - 11/02/01 02:42 PM Brute Force or Skillful Technique
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Some have said that one of the keys to winning a fight is being able to hit very hard.

Some have said that it is more which techniques you employ.

So is the key strength or the application of technique ??

Any thoughts or ideas??

Budo.

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#91255 - 11/02/01 06:11 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Ishinguy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/01
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Interesting point Judderman. I am a beginner in Karate and have always thought that brute force was the way to go and I still feel that that is often the effective way especially if you are more powerfull than your oposition. But recently our Sensei showed us some Akido moves and I was quite impressed with them, while they did take a little skill , they weren't really all that complicated and took very little physical effort.

[This message has been edited by Ishinguy (edited 11-02-2001).]

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#91256 - 11/04/01 07:10 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
I think someone of note once said " in a fight between an 8 stone black belt Karateka and an 18 stone Irish welder (why Irish i dont know, any welder would do)- put you money on the welder" I presume this to mean in a conflict between skill and a massive advantage in weight and raw strength, put you money on weight and raw strength. Is this really the case? Well frankly i'd have to admit to saying that it is. Skill and the application of technique will only get you so far. Sure when coupled with power it can be deadly, but without power, it might well be somewhat pointless. To illustrate the point, if I (being quite tall and well built)
were to fight an equaly skilled opponent, for example a women, who weighed very little
then the odds are massively in my favour, for no other reason than I hit much harder and can accept harder blows. Even if you take my skill out of the equation, she's still quite honestly in a fair bit of trouble.Sure I train heavily in technique, but i damn well push weights and hammer the heavy bag as well because at the end of the day, making sure that when technique allows you to "punch your weight" you have some weight to punch with is more than vital. On a side note to Ishinguy, intersting though Aikido is as a martial art, it relies heavily upon receiving the commitment of others and redirecting it. I've seen very few Aikidoka capable of doing much in the way of aikido when confronted with a technique such as a locked karate reverse punch that offers them nothing to redirect.
Regds and good training


[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 11-04-2001).]

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#91257 - 11/05/01 08:38 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
P Carney Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 100
I think that, in most cases power and size will beat skill, but there are exceptions. I've trained with MA teachers who I have almost 100 pounds on that would eat me for lunch.
How about speed vs. power- which is likely to win a fight?

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#91258 - 11/05/01 02:50 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
I am inclined to move toward technique. Why?
A foil can parry a katana. This has nothing to do with the strengh of either, but technique.

In all of this I would have to say that strength plays an important part. I am taught personal defense moves. These are are taught to a variety of skill level. The moves themselves rely mostly on the application of technique than strength. In my training however I have learnt that a degree a strength also adds its advantage.

Perhaps the question should be, how do we learn to hit hard?

To do so must involve some level of skill, to be effective.

Budo.

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#91259 - 11/05/01 06:08 PM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Entirely my point Judderman - learning to hit hard is all important, and obviously this is where skill and technique come in. Speed is obviously important too, as is targeting. However, if you have all of the above but little in the way of power to back it up, you might as well not bother. Hitting someone with speed and accuracy on the point of the jaw is all very well, but if it just rock them because you can't hit to (perhaps literaly) save your life, then your in a world of hurt.No doubt raw technique will increase your punching power over the layman, but strength though not the be all and end all must be IMO a prime consideration in impact martial arts. Those who insist otherwise tend in my experience to be afraid of this truth on the basis that it may appear to exclude certain members of society from undertaking effective martial practice. I certainly wouldn't advocate that as such, but if it looks like a horse and runs like a horse its probably a horse.

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#91260 - 11/06/01 08:26 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Jim Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 302
Loc: Munich
I think that there are 2 things we should also consider:

1 Set-ups Vs More isolated blows

There are not so many fighters who can tag someone perfectly. However there are lots who can use a good jab to open an oponent and then use subsequent blows to set up(move the head/body of the oponenent)for the coup de grace.

I watched a Yoshinkan Aikido demonstration the other day and in this style they did essentialy the same thing by throwing or locking the opponent and then finishing them from a position where they could take the time to make sure that a blow finished the opponent.

2 Skill Vs Brutality.

Self explanatory really I think the fighter prepared to be more brutal will usually win.

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#91261 - 11/06/01 09:10 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
P Carney Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 100
So does power come from speed or the ability to put your weight behind a blow or both?

Ironically (or perhaps not) power seems to come from proper (and skillful) technique. That is, if I don't throw the punch correctly, without the proper angle, base, whipping motion, etc, I can't get the full power out of it.



[This message has been edited by P Carney (edited 11-06-2001).]

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#91262 - 11/06/01 10:48 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
Shadowfax Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Mason City, IA
the answer to the original question is both. You need power because you can have all the technique in the world and not survive if your punches wouldn't hurt a fly. You need technique because applying the power to ineffective locations is pointless and will just enrage the enemy.

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#91263 - 11/17/01 11:58 AM Re: Brute Force or Skillful Technique
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
After a recent sparring training with Swordfish, I am inclined to look more towards power conrolled as the answer.

Why?
Well, during my training I got my butt kicked!! I was out gunned and out skilled!! I spent most of my time in defense!!

The few strikes I did land were a bit rough for training, but also missed. Where they landed obviously hurt. So in theory, I won, by power.

So my concerns again direct themselves toward how do we generate this power effectivly?

I know what my karate training states, but we've already seen the comparison with the welder.....

Budo.

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