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#91026 - 08/20/01 03:23 PM Your favourite techniques revealed.
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Things are looking desperate, the only escape is through him and his buddies are getting out of a car on the other side of the road. He's got to be dropped quickly before it becomes 5 v 1. He's standing in front of you arms wide open and sneering. You haven't time for anything pretty. Whats your technique, your favourite, the one you use when it really has to work?

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#91027 - 08/23/01 12:14 PM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
TomSwiss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/15/01
Posts: 21
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Depending on range, relative size, etcetera etcetera...all other things being equal I think I'd go with the good ol' palm-heel to the nose. It's a classic.

Assuming that this is a life-or-death group attack situation, I want this guy not just incapacitated, I want him on the ground and bloody to scare the hell out of his buddies. An attack to the knee, groin, even throat won't do that like something to the face.

In addition to re-arranging the face of the recipient, the rising action of the strike snaps the head back, which is where the potential for knock-out or death comes in. (No, you won't push their nosebone back into their brain, that's strickly a myth; but you can shake their brain up enough to kill them.)

Using the palm-heel instead of the fist greatly reduces your chance of injuring your hand or wrist. It may slightly reduce the impact of the strike, but in this case that's just going to mean more engery into the head snap-back instead of into breaking his nose. I've seen cement pavers broken with palm-heel strikes, it's plenty powerful enough to get the job done.

Of course, once his head has snapped back and he's off-balanced, he's ripe for just about any follow-up you care to name. Figuring that he's staggering back from the first shot I'd probably follow up with a front kick from the same side that launched the palm-heel.

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#91028 - 08/28/01 04:25 PM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
Oldwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 71
Loc: Scotland
Hi, sorry Tomswiss, but I'll have to disagree on that one.
Firstly your hand should be well enough conditioned to make damaging them an out side chance.
Secondly with multiple oponents you must finish off oponents rapid, this means knockouts, single shot to the jawline.
Partial knockouts / quick recovery are dealt with after the second, and third oponent, although the situation should dictate the order.
Over the years I've had one or two KO's to my credit and only injured my hands twice, once on teeth and once on the top of a rapidly ducking head, I still finished them off and I wouldn't say my hands are the most heavily conditioned that I've seen.
just my take.

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#91029 - 08/29/01 12:22 AM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
Kuromatsu Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/01
Posts: 42
Hi Oldwolf,

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe that you missed Mr. Swiss' point. The idea of making a bloody mess of the "leader" is one of, perhaps THE, most important first steps in changing the dynamics of the situation.

I have seen this tactic work and would probably choose to rely on it myself in this situation.

The condition of the hands is debatable, but not the point. He said "greatly reduces your chance of injuring your hand or wrist..." Playing the best percentages is always prudent. You may choose to use the knuckles, but that does not change the the validity of Mr. Swiss' observation.

The scenario of "opponent #1, #2, #3, etc..." may have to come to be, but if one can shock the "pack" into losing its nerve and/or backing off a bit - even hesitating - one's chances for survival are increased.

Kind regards,
Andy

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#91030 - 08/29/01 08:02 AM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
omegapoint Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/01
Posts: 150
Both O.W. and T.S. have strong points. The psychological blow caused by seeing their compatriot bloodied-up would cause reservation, but it may also precipitate a beat-down. I've also seen friends of fallen comrades jump in when the situation turned messy for their homeboy.

O.W.'s solution would also be psychologically effective, if you were to exact a quick clean K.O. of the leader or one of his friends. Seeing the toughest dude in your group go nighty-night in such a fashion would probably cause some hesitation on the part of the "posse".

I've used my fists on faces and bodies in street fights numerous times and never had a problem with any injury whatsoever (except a slight street abrasion on my pinky knuckle incurred while delivering rib and kidney shots to a bully I had on the ground in a half-guillotine). There are nerves which control a lot of hand function that branch outward (radiate) from the middle portion of the palmar aspect of the hand. Be very careful when employing a palm-heel strike to hard surfaces. Strong, conditioned fists are always a bonus in bare-knuckle situations. Peace...

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#91031 - 08/29/01 02:01 PM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Thanks for the knowlegeable input all - some good suggestions all round. I think we all agree that the primary concern is to only have to fight the guy in front of you before making our get away, so time is of the essence. Secondary to that but certainly important is the psychological impact of your action on his fast approaching buddies. Knocking him out clean may well make them think twice and certainly if his face looks blooded and messed up that can't hurt your cause. On the subject of technique and purely for the sake of throwing my hat into the arena, i may well go for the rear hand palm strike to the nose WHILST moving into the target at speed, with a lot of noise. Hopefully this will cause the head to snap back and rebound straight onto the
(same arm) forearm / elbow strike as i go through him and carry on running to safety.

[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 08-29-2001).]

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#91032 - 08/29/01 06:49 PM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
Oldwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 71
Loc: Scotland
Mayhaps I misconstrue you,
Through bitter experience, as I'm sure you all have, I have learnt that flamboyant gestures and visually stunning techniques count for diddly squat for real.
The prime objective in a multiple opponent situation is to effect your own, or loved ones safety.
Prioritising: ake out the wolfs and scatter the sheep, if you can do it with a limited number of effective and efficient techniques to neutralise the threat, then go back and frighten the sheep with mighty kiai, sprays of blood etc.
I reckon there is little point in trying to frighten the sheep, with bloody faces etc until the wolves are history.
Having said that, if you can do it and make it pretty good on yeah.
However effective first, pretty second.
Just my take.

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#91033 - 08/29/01 11:10 PM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
TomSwiss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/15/01
Posts: 21
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oldwolf:
Secondly with multiple oponents you must finish off oponents rapid, this means knockouts, single shot to the jawline.
[/QUOTE]

I think we're imagining the scenario a bit differently; I'm thinking one guy in my face while the others are on the other side of the road.

Jawline is a good target too, and one I'd be more likely to attack with the closed fist. You also want a different angle, though; I'm picturing that he's directly facing me and I've got a better angle to go right up the middle than to go for the side/corners of the jaw.

(Though you could throw a hook, which is a technique I've been working on lately. I found a U.S. Naval Aviation boxing manual from the early 40's in a used book store last year, and have been learning a lot from it...it's done wonders for my left hook.)

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#91034 - 09/10/01 05:24 PM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
Oldwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 71
Loc: Scotland
My bad Tom, we were looking at it slightly differently.
Your angle of attack should not be determined by where your opponent is but by how you have lined him up.
Hooks etc. should all be in your Karate, just some times it takes a bit of searching. Nip down to your local boxing gym, get the trainer to run over the basic hooks with you then reexamine your Kata, then get on the heavy bag.
Train on!

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#91035 - 06/21/02 01:05 PM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
Jason Porter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 12
Loc: Johnson City, NY, USA
Hello all. Though I have had the luxury of studying many styles my core is in Oyama Karate and Muay Thai and I would have to say that if confronted by someone front on who is just inside my physical sphere then I would use an outside low kick to the thigh followed by an upward knee to the face. If you've ever been kicked in the thigh by a good low kick with the shin then you know what I'm speaking off. This kick will result in the attacker being lowered and you can grab and knee. Effective and still getting the psychological aspects of combat across to his buddies. Yes I like finger strikes to the eyes as well, followed by a number of techniques but I will have to stick with the low kick, it is powerful and on the unexpected line of attack. Just my two cents, everyone has their bread and butter.

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#91036 - 01/19/03 12:20 PM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
One guy between me and freedom? seconds count? I'm gonn have to say some sort of feint, probably to the right, then a quick tenkan or other sidestep to the left, to get around him. Maybe some kind of atemi to the face as a distraction.Why close with the guy when all you want is to get around him?
Alternatively, I would open my blade, show it, and rush by him. I doubt he'd try to grab me. If he did, he might pull back a stump.

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#91037 - 01/20/03 02:52 AM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
roundhouser Offline
Member

Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 96
Loc: melbourne
I would do a jab to the nose then a cross to the jaw and run like heck.

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#91038 - 01/20/03 11:42 AM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I think one needs to evaluate this scenario.I agree any strikes or kicks would be fine, a bloody mess good too, but, this may accelerate the fight, and have all members join the fight at once. If this is a serious threat to your life, and you want to really discourage the rest, I favour a strike to the throat. Everyone has all sorts of weapons, spear hand, shuto, tiger mouth,etc. I know this may sound harsh, but if you want to take the guy out, the throat is a good target. There was one suggestion....."I'm gonn have to say some sort of feint, probably to the right, then a quick tenkan or other sidestep to the left, to get around him. Maybe some kind of atemi to the face as a distraction.Why close with the guy when all you want is to get around him?"
This to me is a bit risky, when you get around him, now you got someone to your rear and he is not out of the picture. This sounds like an Aikido type movement and then deal with all the attackers.If you can hit him to distract him, hit him so he won't continue, forget the distracting stuff, not in this situation. It may work like randori in the dojo, but on the street, that just won't get the job done. The leader needs to be taken out, period, not just get around him, as his group will probably not attack 1 at a time, like the practice in the dojo.You need to make his associates really think about continuing the fight, after their main guy is spitting up blood or is laying there gasping for breath.

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#91039 - 01/27/03 07:30 PM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Senseilou, I agree that getting around him to fight the others would be foolish, but my understanding of the scenario described is that the buddies are on the other side of the road, distant enought that, if I can get by him quickly, I can run away like the craven coward i am. I can do a pretty good 800 yard dash with the proper motivation!
If the four other dudes were IN the picture, I'd have to go with a variation of the bloody screaming mess. I'm thinking low kick to the knee/shin/instep to get him to drop his hands a little, then follow up with an eye gouge or throat strike. If you CAN'T run from these guys, you need to make a horror show that will cause them to reevaluate. Honestly, though, I think you're going to the ER or the morgue if it's five on one.

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#91040 - 01/28/03 12:43 AM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Jamoni, I mentioned this in another post as well. The late Grandmaster James Mitose said if a coward comes to you and wants to learn not to be a coward, first tech him to run and be a good coward. Nothing wrong with running away if they will let you, but you may have to fight to get out of one of these situations

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#91041 - 01/29/03 09:05 PM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
legend Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 16
Loc: fairfax, va
Double leg takedown/tackle...get up and kick him in the head a few times and ball out.

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#91042 - 01/30/03 03:26 AM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
First I would pirouette through 360 degrees and then cartwheel to the left. I'd follow this with a back flip up and over my attackers head, landing behind him. I would then be in a position to pull his underpants up over his head, in a technique called a "wedgey". Whilst he was busy trying to extracate his knickers from his bum, I would quickly tie his shoelaces together and then push him over.

I would expect his freinds to be so impressed that they would burst into spontaneous applause, during which time I would make my escape. If that didn't happen I would fashion a weapon from a strand of hair and some snot, before commencing on a "Jackie Chan" like fight with them all.

What's that you say? That wouldn't work...all a bit too Hollywood? Well, it's as realistic as some of the other replies on here.

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#91043 - 01/31/03 01:23 PM Re: Your favourite techniques revealed.
martial_life Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 72
Loc: Elkton, SD, US
this will prolly sound kinda stupid in the perspective of some of you with nice, fancy, moves that have unpronouncable names. If i had to fight, I would try jumping at him and side kicking him(perhaps its called a jumping side kick, i don't know) either at the thigh, or somewhere between the stomach and nose. If i didn't have a chance to already leave without fighting.
Nice post Cato, nothig beter then a little humor to remind us to be realistic. 5 on 1? unless they're grade-schoolers or seriously handicapped(no disrespect to the young or handicapped), i think you'll lose if you try to go against that.

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