FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 23 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BUJU, Pilsungkarate, ALF, old1, Leonar
22928 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ronin1966 3
futsaowingchun 2
ergees 2
GojuRyuboy13 2
AndyLA 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Forum Stats
22928 Members
36 Forums
35584 Topics
432513 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#90850 - 08/14/01 05:17 PM You are walking down the street and........
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
....someone stops you to ask the time.
As you look back up to give your answer, you are grabbed by the lapel.
It looks like you are about to be punched in the face.

What do you do next???


(Further posts under this topic will have a number. This one is Q#1)

[This message has been edited by judderman (edited 08-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by judderman (edited 08-15-2001).]

Top
#90851 - 08/15/01 08:39 AM Re: You are walking down the street and........
KoshoBob Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/01
Posts: 51
Plenty of options:

1. head butt, knee/kick to the groin
2. elbow strike (vertical/horizontal)
3. Step thru the grabbing arm with a stike and simultanious strike to the throat with opposite hand, could be turned into a throw
4. If they are pushing you with the grab, go for a hip throw

Top
#90852 - 08/15/01 09:33 AM Re: You are walking down the street and........
Kuromatsu Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/01
Posts: 42
The guy probably has a knife (he wouldn't grab you if he had a gun) so you have to go for the immediate incapacitation - fingers to the eyes (he will let go of you), or one of KoshoBob's suggestions, a good kick to the groin and run!

If he is so stupid as to grap your lapel, you also have the opportunity to use this easiest of handles to take him down and pin him - turn off of the line, while trapping his hand and bringin his elbow up-around-and down to pin his arm and therefore his body to the ground while you pound him and/or call for help - unless you are then having to evade his buddies lurking in the shadows. Getting the hell out of there is probably the best course of action.

Kind regards,
Andy

Top
#90853 - 08/15/01 01:29 PM Re: You are walking down the street and........
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Hi judderman.
Well the options are pretty endless in this scenario. Head-butt or knee to the groin might be difficult if the attacker has locked his arm (or indeed has long arms). Kick to groin/stomach/knee etc may be feasible but really we are beyond kicking range here and into mid/close range. So, setting aside a direct linear attack due to concerns over his locked/long arms what is left? Firstly id have to consider an imoblisation followed by strike, such as arm bar followed by knee/downward elbow strike to the spine or indeed perhaps kakewake uke (wedge block) to break the arm at the elbow by striking simultaneously above and below the elbow joint on either side of the arm
(as seen in the Shotokan kata Heian Nidan) Secondly I would consider turning into the opponent with an elbow strike or hook punch possibly followed by seoi nage (shoulder throw) or any number of sweeps using the torque and rotation generated by my initial strike. As I said many options but one must always remember not to be too flowery and just to get the job done. Secondly one must consider the law and (in the UK at least) the concept of reasonable force. The courts might take a dim view of a shattered elbow or arm or indeed a crushed larynx as a result of a simple lapel grab. Well just my 2 pence worth anyway.
Regds and good training.

Top
#90854 - 08/15/01 01:37 PM Re: You are walking down the street and........
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
I would point out in addition to my previous post, that on reflection, if your just looking up, as your lapel is grabbed and he intends to hit you in the face without further comment, then the first punch will most likely be on its way in the time it takes you to launch a counter strike. Therefore you guys might wish to concider a response in light of the fact that you may be stunned or dazed from the strike OR if you did manage to cover up and ride the punch how would this change the nature of your response bearing in mind you may be off balance or un-sighted of the target? Just an additional thought.

Top
#90855 - 08/15/01 01:38 PM Re: You are walking down the street and........
Kuromatsu Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/01
Posts: 42
MrVig. wrote:
"Secondly one must consider the law and (in the UK at least) the concept of reasonable force. The courts might take a dim view of a shattered elbow or arm or indeed a crushed larynx as a result of a simple lapel grab."

The thing is that a simple lapel grab is not a simple lapel grab. It is a prelude to being knifed in the belly or throat or to having one's head reshaped by a pipe. The result can easily be death - so in this situation one is well within the "right" to respond with formidable force to prevent a presumed deadly assault - and we must ALWAYS presume an assault to be deadly. No one willfully assaults someone to be gentle. ;-)

Kind regards,
Andy

Top
#90856 - 08/15/01 03:06 PM Re: You are walking down the street and........
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Hi Kuromatsu. I dont know what your country of residence is, so my point regarding the law may not apply to you. However in the UK where I reside, I can tell you that in a situation such as we are discussing you may only use "resonable force" in the prevention of a crime /self defence /defence of property. The "reasonableness" of the force that you use in this situation will be a matter for the jury to decide. In doing this they should put themsleves in your position at the time, under the stresses you were exposed to and the time that you had to make a decision. That being said you cannot expect the court to accept that all assaults are to be presumed deadly and thereby you are justified in responding with as you put it "formidable force." What if in the scenario given, the guy had stumbled and just grabbed hold of you for support and you put him into intensive care? As Martial Artists we may be particularly vulnerable to prosecution in cases such as these and it is important to concider these matters as best we can in the circumstances. That being said, there is the arguement that "it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6."
At the end of the day its a matter for individual reflection and concideration.
Regds and good training.




[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 08-15-2001).]

Top
#90857 - 08/15/01 04:40 PM Re: You are walking down the street and........
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Interesting thoughts.
I believe you are right Mr.V. ones first concern (if you have the state of mind) is to deal with the punch, preferably before it makes contact with your face.
If you are a well seasoned Martial Artist, it is safe to assume that even in blind panic, you would be able to move your head enough to reduce the force of the blow.
I will pick up from this point, assuming that you have in some way or another prevented yourself from being struck hard.

MrV. is quite right. To stike with a kick, especially now, would be difficult and ineffectual. A head butt, however interesting, would only be possible if you could mount enough force to over come the controlling lapel grab and be quick enough to outmatch a second punch.

One must remember that defined and speciffically targeted strikes will generally be useless. Unless you Mr IceMan.
Stress (which you will definately be experiencing) reduces the number of fine hand/arm movements the body is capable of.

KoshoBob's and Kuromatsu's final thoughts would be most effective here I believe. To lock and throw the opponent would be easiest and most effective. Assuming the attacker has grabbed you with his right hand you could:
1) grab his/her/its wrist with both hands and turn your right hip back, so that you are on the outside of the arm. Applying pressure downwards thought the elbow will cause him/her/it to fall rapidly to the ground.
2) grab his/her/its wrist with both hands and turn your right hip forwards, continuing this motion quickly will cause the opponent to flip over quite dramatically.

On the subject of reasonable force. MrV is right. Here in the UK we must demonstrate in court why we used the force we did. I also believe that in the States there are laws governing this subject. Afterall, if you break a person's nose and run off, the police are not likely to be interested. Kill or maim someone and they will be.
Beyond this we must consider the morallity of the situation. I feel this is a topic for a new posting, as it is purely an individual thing.

Incidentally, a lapel grab is not always a prelude to the use of a knife.
If a knife was to be used then the moment you looked at your watch, you would be stabbed.

Budo.

Top
#90858 - 08/15/01 04:58 PM Re: You are walking down the street and........
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
.....you hear someone running behind you. As you turn you realise that they are RIGHT behind you!!

What do you do next???


(This is situation Q#2)

Top
#90859 - 08/15/01 07:06 PM Re: You are walking down the street and........
Kuromatsu Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/01
Posts: 42
Hi MrV,

Ha! ;-) Your observations assume that I'm suggesting that we lash out in a thoughtless act of obtuse violence without taking into account what might be perceived in the moment. My point is that we must be prepared to do maximum damage in an instant, acting on the presupposition that we are in mortal danger. Given out training, it is quite probable that we will be able to assess the situation in an instant (sadly, those who do not train as we do will not be able to) and respond according to our training.

The assumption that we are in mortal danger has to be our starting point because it is far easier to "downgrade" our response than it is to upgrade it. There are plenty of techniques that are available to us where the difference between a control and/or immobilization and a deadly technique are minute and not difficult to switch to/from.

I understand your legal concerns and I don't see any problem in taking it into account - as a second concern - the primary being personal wellbeing. I'm in the U.S. and our legal system is not too different in its approach to this kind of "case."

Kind regards,
Andy

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >


Moderator:  Cord, Dedicated1, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga