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#90395 - 04/04/05 03:01 PM Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Forum,
I was thinking just how hard it can be not to respond to inane or foolish questions. It might be nice to have an all purpose response copied on the clipboard of your computer. It might go like this...........

Thats an interesting question. My advice would be to seek out a qualified instructor in your area. Good luck.

oldman



[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 04-04-2005).]

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#90396 - 04/04/05 03:33 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
[QUOTE]Wouldn't it be satisfying to see that response 6 or 8 times in a row.[/QUOTE]

Thats an interesting question. My advice would be to seek out a qualified instructor in your area. Good luck.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#90397 - 04/05/05 12:50 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Oldman,

Your obvious and malicious trolling is getting increasingly annoying. If you don't stop i'll... wait a minute, wrong response. Sorry, i was kind of on autopilot, knee jerk reaction and all.

This is a good idea though. I think i'll start a rolodex of auto responses.

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#90398 - 04/05/05 03:16 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


The only foolish question is a question not asked...

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#90399 - 04/05/05 03:19 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Or one asked too many times.

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#90400 - 04/05/05 04:18 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


to each his own

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#90401 - 04/05/05 08:01 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


openmind ,

I will look forward to the presentation of your biases and predjudices.

oldman

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#90402 - 04/05/05 09:34 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
But.... why have they all got to be signed oldman?

[QUOTE]I was thinking just how hard it can be not to respond to inane or foolish questions. It might be nice to have an all purpose response copied on the clipboard of your computer. It might go like this...........
Thats an interesting question. My advice would be to seek out a qualified instructor in your area. Good luck.
oldman
[/QUOTE]

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#90403 - 04/05/05 09:52 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bossman,
I imagine it's due to my pathological narcissism.

ol............crap. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

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#90404 - 04/05/05 11:18 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by openmind:
The only foolish question is a question not asked...[/QUOTE]


Or that question which was first not "Searched" for before posting it for the 40 bazzilionth time.

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#90405 - 04/05/05 01:22 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:
Bossman,
I imagine it's due to my pathological narcissism.

ol............crap. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

That's okay then. As long as it's pathological, it must be scientific! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Bossman (edited 04-05-2005).]

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#90406 - 04/05/05 01:41 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


What's a troll?

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#90407 - 04/05/05 01:49 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


as I look foward to yours old man

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#90408 - 04/05/05 02:39 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


IN MY OPINION, i belive they refer a troll to someone they belive of lesser knowledge to them and one who in thier opinion asks stupid questions

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#90409 - 04/05/05 03:04 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
No that doesn't make them trolls, the trolls have some kind of ill will and are deliberately trying to upset and irritate poor, defenceless, innocent internet users such as myself

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#90410 - 04/05/05 03:05 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


although I could be wrong.......there are a few that belive a troll is just silly. they want to shoot energy at poeple and buildings, fly, stuff of that sort. they want to do it yesterday and not have to train. this in my opinion is a troll.

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#90411 - 04/05/05 03:25 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


All of us are ignorant of something. It is not simply matter of someone being judged for a lack of knowledge. Trolls can be nothing more than a bored adolescent. Members who have been here a while know that they can also be intentional instigators of trouble for the sake of it. You may have a different opinion when you get your first physical threat or perhaps from an admirer in a psyciatric facility. Stay around a while. Enjoy the forum. I believe patience is a virture. In time you will find yours tested.

oldman

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 04-12-2005).]

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#90412 - 04/05/05 03:37 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Very well stated oldman. I only stated that because of my negative expirences on this forum. that is just what I percived. although your statement makes sense.

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#90413 - 04/05/05 03:42 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would like to apologize for my previous snippy remark. It was uncalled for.

Welcome to the Forum.

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#90414 - 04/05/05 03:52 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by openmind:
they want to do it yesterday and not have to train. this in my opinion is a troll.[/QUOTE]

Thats right. And they want people that have spent years of their life training to give it to them for free.

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#90415 - 04/05/05 04:07 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you oldman. I apologize as well.

I more than completly agree fisherman. do you mean free, by not putting forth effort?

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#90416 - 04/05/05 07:12 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Free by not putting forth ant effort, in other words being spoon fed.
Also by not having to pay hard earned money like some of us have.
Things are a bit different when you have to work to put food on your table, pay rent, etc. and pay for your own training.

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#90417 - 04/05/05 10:18 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I guess I thought these forums were for sharing. Just because someone hasn't trained in your style or knows less about something doesn't make them a troll. If they ask the same qustion you guys have answered over and over that also does not make them a troll. One person calls it chi, another person says ki, and yet another person says qi. which one is the troll? or are they all? or are none of them? perspective is what we all judge things from. whether or not they have 6 months in IMA or 25 years shouldn't matter. Not one of us has all the answers so we are all trolls in one way or another. the problem is this. you all stand facing the wall with the sun behind you admiring your shadows, saying see what i did i made a shadow. then one MAN comes along and turns and sees the sun and says it isn't you making the shadow it is the sun that creates the light that you all have blocked. Then in your ignorance you kill the one who tried to get you to acknowledge the sun. going back to staring at your shadow you await the next victim. GET OUT OF YOUR BOX.

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#90418 - 04/05/05 11:23 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


There are a few differnt internal martial arts forums out on the internet. Much like here, Everyone in them is very friendly and very knowledgable...typically of xing yi, tai chi, or bagua. On the Flipside....They just don't seem to attract the same childish trolls we find here. They definately get their share of peeps that try and just rile everyone up though but they wouldn't dare post anything as absurd as some of the massive feats of cheese that have been posted here.


This forum has some of the most inane trolls. I think the term "energy arts" might have something to do with attracting them. Maybe a more appropriate term would be "Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and Medicine" .... Rather than attract people by the glorification of energy (which makes little boys testosterone soar and they get pleasure messing with peeps).

[This message has been edited by hardluck (edited 04-05-2005).]

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#90419 - 04/05/05 11:24 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kickcatcher:
What's a troll? [/QUOTE]

similar to one of these...

[IMG]http://weta.boarsnest.net/plate2.jpg[/IMG]

Its something really ugly that lives in dark places and crawls out to attack when u least expect it. Hence why I carry my troll bashing stick everywhere.

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#90420 - 04/06/05 01:12 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with hard luck

In my opinion energy arts could be considered any type of energy art ie: black magic, vodoo,white magic,radki, chi gung. This is far to vague of a forum description.

Maybe the forums should be called the Traditional Chinese IMA forum. or maybe forums called tai chi, hsing-i baga, so on and so forth

Just a thought

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#90421 - 04/06/05 01:19 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
A name change was proposed long ago. doesn't look like it will happen though.

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#90422 - 04/06/05 05:39 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Energy arts only includes the Chinese ones? What about Japanese ones like Aikido? And korean ones like Hapkido?

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#90423 - 04/06/05 06:40 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
A troll is a 12-16 year old kid that comes along and posts that he 'knows ki' and has knocked his buddy on his butt using it. However, it drained all the power I have built up.
Little kids living in fantasy land = trolls.

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#90424 - 04/06/05 10:43 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
.... or a deliberately mischevious adult hiding his identity and stirring everyone up with deliberately provocative material. I have a deep mistrust of anyone who doesn't provide a proper bio.

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#90425 - 04/06/05 11:50 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


So have you vigilanties found any trolls to use this frightful "stopper" on?

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#90426 - 04/06/05 12:52 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh the irony, Energy Arts is just to vague. Seems to me people assume energy arts means internal energy when it is clearly not specified. When the forum has no such classification. Because someone hasn't seen it they choose not to believe it and call someone a troll for believeing it. I can in one fail swoop prove to everyone that this is ignorance.

Has anyone here seen a million dollars in cash? Even though you haven't seen it, it still exists. YOUR STUCK IN A BOX PEOPLE ONLY BELIEVEING IN WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN WITH YOUR OWN EYES. HOW SAD [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG].

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#90427 - 04/06/05 01:10 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Sa Bum Nim,

Just who exactly are you calling ignorant here?
Maybe the case is that some of the more seasoned practitioners have a more educated view than others?
Myself, I am always open to learning new things, and I will be the first to say that I DON'T know it all. However, what I do know I know from EXPERIENCE - not from beliefs. Believing and knowing are very different things.

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#90428 - 04/06/05 02:36 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


fish why do you believe it was directed at you? Is there a reason you feel it was directed toward you?

My point is that one doesn't have to see something or experiance it to know it to be real or for it to be a fact. Or do they?

Caution ahead.

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#90429 - 04/06/05 03:06 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


The verdict of a trial is in part determined by the juries perception of the credibility of the witness.
There is fact, and there is hearsay. Fact that is verifiable holds significant weight.

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 04-06-2005).]

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#90430 - 04/06/05 03:57 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
There is a difference here, a troll is a non identifiable person deliberately trying to disrupt normal productive forum discussion.

On a forum such as this we have many DBZ teenies and children visiting because the name of the forum is now misleading because of the introduction of these kiddy programmes. Most of us agree the name should be changed and these visits will continue until it is.

There is a core group of experienced practitioners here that are willing to share their experiences on IMA that is rare on the internet and the informatioin is quite valuable. Some of us have travelled the world and trained with many leading masters and therefore have something to contribute other than mere speculation and heresay.

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#90431 - 04/06/05 05:04 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Nice posts Bossman and oldman.

Sa Bum Nim,

I found the direction of your statement a bit vauge, so it was difficult to tell who it was directed towards. I don't feel offended, no worries there. I could care less if people call me ignorant - I know what I know. What I know is serving me quite well.
Considering that my views are kind of strict and sharply spoken - I could see where some may consider me a non-beliver. Fact of the matter is, I belive in things that are real.

[QUOTE]My point is that one doesn't have to see something or experiance it to know it to be real or for it to be a fact. Or do they?[/QUOTE]

Not neccessarily, however, oldman made a great point. Those claims that have a factual backing to them do hold more water.

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#90432 - 04/06/05 05:07 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bossman,
That is my point. There are those members that testify to their expeirience with their eloquence and lucidity. Their comments are credible. Their contribution to the forum community is unquestionable and respected. Some will earn it and some won't. I consider you one of those to be looked up to.

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#90433 - 04/06/05 07:36 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bossman:
Some of us have travelled the world and trained with many leading masters and therefore have something to contribute other than mere speculation and heresay. [/QUOTE]

I'm hoping that you can manage to travel over here at some stage... It would be great to have you for a few seminars. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#90434 - 04/06/05 10:12 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Great posts guys, But the FACT still remains That just because one or all of us haven't seen it does not mean it dosen't exist. i proved that with the Million dollar analogy. Another prime example is this. If I told you my son qualified for the AAU nationals in TKD. But if you were not at the AAU region 7 qualifier to witness it that in no way changes the fact that he did qualify with a 1st in sparring and a 2nd in forms.

Do you understand the point I am making? the point is that just because the people here haven't experianced it or were not there to see it doesn't mean it isn't fact.

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#90435 - 04/06/05 10:25 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Reiki,

That's a really interesting critter - seriously what is it?

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#90436 - 04/06/05 11:32 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Sa Bum Nim

The existance of exactly what is it that you are trying to prove?

(the arguments you use are familiar from discussions with religious (I wouldnt't want to use the word "fanatics") people, trying to prove some point or other)

regs,
nenippal

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#90437 - 04/07/05 12:52 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
The problem with your million dollar analogy and your son going to nationals is this. Even though we haven't seen them they are both verifiable. You keep referring to "people" not believing in "it" but you have yet to specify WHO you are referring to and what IT is they don't believe in. You mentioned before, in another thread i believe, that people here keep trying to disprove chi, this isn't true. From what i can tell the majority of the regular members here do believe in chi. The thing that is in debate is the various uses of chi. Most here don't believe it can be used to blow out candles, knock over people without touching them and so on.

As far as the name of this section and the topics it covers i have stated several times what is and isn't allowed here. The set topics here were not set by me and were in place long before i was even a member. However i do fully agree with them. This section of the forum is for the discussion of IMA mainly but is extended to EMA and healing arts. It is not for psychic energy, witch craft, paranormal "energies" and so on. I can understand people not knowing this straight off. What i can't understand are those who post radki, dbz or other topics here then fly off the handle when they are told this isn't the forum for it. I don't care if people think they can fly. This isn't the place to discuss it.

This also has nothing to do with someone not having as much experience in the arts or being young. There are some here who have had no traditional training and others who are under the age of 18 that have been more than welcome and have made many valuable contributions to discussions. Even if it was simply asking good questions.

Another issue i have is with people who are coming here with a "holier than thow" attitude calling us close minded. There is a BIG difference in being close minded and being a skeptic. I am a skeptic but i am open to anything provided i see or experience it myself. Some things i can accept from others i trust but for the most part i want hands on experience. Most of these people calling us close minded are the ones that are close minded. They see nothing outside of their belief. Anyone else’s experiences and knowledge mean nothing because of their belief, even though they have experienced nothing in the way of backing up their beliefs. If you believe something to be true don't chastise others for not believing.

[QUOTE]you all stand facing the wall with the sun behind you admiring your shadows, saying see what i did i made a shadow. then one MAN comes along and turns and sees the sun and says it isn't you making the shadow it is the sun that creates the light that you all have blocked. Then in your ignorance you kill the one who tried to get you to acknowledge the sun. going back to staring at your shadow you await the next victim.[/QUOTE]

This could be taken as a very arrogant statement. You are alluding that we the skeptics are simply admiring our own accomplishments and attacking anyone who has a differing view. Who says you are the one that is right? What are we so wrong about? More important, where is the proof either way? I have seen countless people come to this forum claiming all sorts of things such as radki and yellowbamboo. NONE of them have been able to provide ANY proof of their claims or beliefs.

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#90438 - 04/07/05 03:02 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


laf I understand each of your statements.

What I don't understand is why skepticism should require that someone proves something to anyone here.

I for one know what I have seen and experienced and just because it differs from what others have seen and experienced here doesn't mean it didn't happen.

IMHO The reason why a skeptic doesn't believe is most likely Because they have not experienced or seen it. This is understandable. However, that doesn't mean it is not fact to someone who has seen and experianced the types of things the skepics say don't exist.

Would these be correct statments in your opinion? And if so why should your belief and skepticism over shadow what another knows to be fact?

I hope you understand the points I have made.

BTW where are you stationed at? My Fu Shi Tao teacher is an ex-navy seal.

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#90439 - 04/07/05 06:14 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Sa Bum Nim,

don't mean to bug you, so sorry if I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but what exactly is it that you are trying to prove?

If you choose to disregard this question again, I'll assume you don't want to answer it and just drop it (I'm only posting it again in case you happened to miss it)

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#90440 - 04/07/05 08:50 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Sa Bum Nim, I think your point is so mute that no one understands why you're trying to make it.

We all speak of our own personal experiences here, end of story. I've trained in IMA and EMA for 35 years and teach and train both all over the world. I'm a writer and have interviewed many great masters from all over the world for over 25 years. Not one respected master has ever claimed that internal energy can move any physical object or person. No person has ever claimed to be able to move me with their energy and if they did I would challenge them to do it there and then.

I'm not denying anything, only stating my experience. I've always enjoyed this forum and only ever read selectively now because I don't have the time to read the endless trivia posted by those too lazy to read through it properly before posting.

I would like to see a name change and more severe moderating.

Reiki I'd love to come to middle earth (my wife is a life long Tolkien fan) and intend to make a visit to that part of the world before too long and will defineitely look you up when I do.

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#90441 - 04/07/05 11:28 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Personally I think Sa Bum should have been gone long ago. People who post things like fact and then don't answer the questions posed of them or circumvent them are trolls imo.

I don't mind his presence here, but I know his ass would be gone in a flash if he posted and responded elsewhere like he does here.

Its completely unprofessional to ignore people with valid questions or circumvent the question by attempting to change the subject.

I'm not calling for a ban, I'm just saying hes very disrespectful. The fact that he overlooks questions posed to him has been brought up before. Many Many Times.

EDIT: Heck Christianity has St. Thomas Aquinis' Theorums to Prove the existence of god. Noone has to believe them but it's a very good read.

No one has to believe you either, but You first post here ever was about smothering a flame with your chi. You will forever be marred by that im my mind. And you will never have any proof that you ever did. Nor will anyone else. They would have won the million dollar prize by now.

[This message has been edited by hardluck (edited 04-07-2005).]

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#90442 - 04/07/05 01:12 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
There really is no need for proof of kiblasts or levitation here. I originally asked for proof of this type of thing to prove a point, they don't exist. It has been long standing here that this type of discussion is not for this forum. Some persisted it was and i offered them the chance to prove their claims and allow the discussions to continue.

[QUOTE]I for one know what I have seen and experienced and just because it differs from what others have seen and experienced here doesn't mean it didn't happen.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't mean we have to believe or entertain the discussion either. The fact that many of us have years of experience and have seen NOTHING to support any of these claims tells us it didn't happen. If someone comes to this forum and says they can knock a person down without touching them then they need to provide some proof. People I have come across, in person, who has made these claims found themselves flat on there back when tested.

[QUOTE]IMHO The reason why a skeptic doesn't believe is most likely Because they have not experienced or seen it. This is understandable. However, that doesn't mean it is not fact to someone who has seen and experianced the types of things the skepics say don't exist.[/QUOTE]

Then enlighten them with proof. If you can't perform these tasks but have seen it done with your OWN eyes point us in their direction. The simple FACT about it is most of the people who claim they have experienced things like kiblasts, putting out flames with their chi and knocking people over with out touching them have had no such experience. They are saying what ever they can to reinforce their belief to others. When they are asked for proof they fall short with some excuse or BS story about being too enlightened for such a test as it is beneath them now. These beliefs usually come from an instructor who is a liar and telling them these things are true or they have misunderstood what was told them. It's amazing the lengths some will go to in defense of what their instructor has TOLD them, yet never showed them.

[QUOTE]Would these be correct statments in your opinion? And if so why should your belief and skepticism over shadow what another knows to be fact?[/QUOTE]

Because my beliefs are based on fact. Their "facts" are based on their beliefs. Most who make such claims have never experienced these things as they have said. Otherwise they would be able to prove these things or at least point us to someone who could. Why should they prove it to us? Why should we entertain a discussion about something we do not believe in and doesn't fit into the focus of the forum?

[QUOTE]BTW where are you stationed at? My Fu Shi Tao teacher is an ex-navy seal.[/QUOTE]

I work with NRSW base police in Point Loma.

[QUOTE] I would like to see a name change and more severe moderating.[/QUOTE]

I have tried getting a name change with no response. Others can e-mail Mr. Caile with their views on it if you like. As for more severe moderating, I will be putting together a post for the “all please read” section at the top of the section tonight after work. Things are about to change here. All off topic threads/posts will be deleted. A second posts/thread by the same person of the same off topic nature will result in a ban. The forum rules will be followed more closely, in reference to the treatment of others and profane language. So this will mean ignoring trolls and not jumping at the throats of the youngsters for asking the same questions over and over. They will all be dealt with in time.

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#90443 - 04/07/05 02:16 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Way to go Laf! Thank you.

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#90444 - 04/07/05 03:00 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
[QUOTE]Originally posted by eyrie:
Reiki,

That's a really interesting critter - seriously what is it?
[/QUOTE]

This lovely thing is a weta. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

One of our native insects, the normal size of these is about the size of the palm of my hand...

They bite and also spike you with the spikes on their hind legs which make nice septic wounds. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

I found one of these things in my gumboot the other day after I put my foot in it! It felt very prickly [!] and was hissing at me!

One bit my sons big toe and kept attacking him while he was shaking his foot to get it off. Looked like he'd been cut with a sharp knife. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

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#90445 - 04/08/05 04:11 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I never asked anyone to believe my experiences concerning projection. I have told you of my Lin Kong Jing experiments and the results. Believe what you want. The point is not moot as bossman would say. The point is very valid. The point is you use your personal belief as fact.

For anyone to say someone is a troll because they don't agree with them when they tell of personal experience is most disrespectful and in my opinion asinine.

How do you people propose one demonstrates Lin Kong Jing over the web? MPEG? that you will call fake anyway because you don't believe it is possible?

I never said I could knock someone down or out with projection did I? NO. Is it possible? I really don't know. I only know and regard as fact my results. which I have posted.

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#90446 - 04/08/05 09:57 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I never accused you of making any claims. Nor have i referred to anyone as a troll simple because i disagree with them. While i don't think teens telling lies about what they can do with ki are trolls they still don't belong here.

As far as you or anyone else proving anything, there is no need to do it on the web. I'm sure there is someone on this or another forum living close enough to you or who ever else that could verify these claims. I have done it several times with the no touch KO guys and a few of the radki kids.

You seem to want to condemn us for using our personal beliefs as fact when you are doing the EXACT same thing. I can tell you my personal beliefs come from 23 years of training with various people in at least 7 countries. During that time i haven't met a single person making such claims that could prove them on anyone other than one of their loyal disciples. There is always the catch fraise "you have to believe for it to work". This is total BS, if these no touch or chi projection techniques only work if the individual believes then what good are they? What good would blowing out a flame do you?

There still stands the question posed to you Sa Bum Nim. What exactly is it you are trying to prove? What exactly is it that we don't believe in? What is it that we are wrong about? Be specific.

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#90447 - 04/08/05 10:39 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Sa Bum Nim

I am followed round on a daily basis by 6' bunny called Harvey. We converse on any manner of subjects.

People think and say that I'm mad because they can't see him.

Just because other people can't see him doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Prove that I'm wrong.

JohnL

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#90448 - 04/08/05 10:43 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
My point is that one doesn't have to see something or experiance it to know it to be real or for it to be a fact. Or do they?

Caution ahead.
[/QUOTE]

I think all this came from a comment (by openmind) about a woman flipping a car off her child.

LAF7773 replied that he would like to see that and I followed up that "If there are lots of these incidents to be researched, please just provide documentation on ONE of them."

As I also said, I saw a kung fu preacher doing a demonstration once at a church. Standing there in church, he said, "It happened right here in this very state. A woman, five months pregnant. A car falls on her husband and she lifts the car off of him!"

Did that really happen?

What do you really think?

If it EVER happened ONCE, why hasn't anyone ever been able to name the woman who did it?

It's one thing to be openminded to the possibility that something "could" exist, quite another to repeat urban legends as facts and stubornly "believe" them with no evidence or proof.

And it's yet another thing to be bothered when other people reject these stories as urban legends.

I've been in martial arts for almost 33 years. I've known people in almost every art and I have trained in many arts, myself. I've seen and experienced some weird things, but I still have to experience it before I will say "It is real."

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#90449 - 04/08/05 10:53 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
Do you understand the point I am making? the point is that just because the people here haven't experianced it or were not there to see it doesn't mean it isn't fact. [/QUOTE]

The problem is, most martial artists have also heard a lot of outright lies in their years around martial artists. If lies were money, I could show you that million dollars cash, myself.

In fact, one of the biggest lessons most people learn within a year of beginning martial arts has to be "Don't believe everything you hear."

Or:

"Most of what you hear is wrong or a lie."

Sometimes, only experience can help you tell the difference.

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#90450 - 04/08/05 10:54 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Then there is the perception of the expeirience. Which will vary from individual to individual. Lets say my daughter go to see a magic show. We both watch a magician pull a rabbit out of a hat. Though we have both seen it and we both have a different perception of it. Did he pull a rabbit from the hat? yes, thats a Fact. Did it materialize from nothingness? No. Even facts need to be investigated.

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#90451 - 04/08/05 10:59 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
IMHO The reason why a skeptic doesn't believe is most likely Because they have not experienced or seen it. This is understandable. However, that doesn't mean it is not fact to someone who has seen and experianced the types of things the skepics say don't exist.

why should your belief and skepticism over shadow what another knows to be fact?
[/QUOTE]

Haven't you ever seen a magician saw a lady in half? Do you really believe he really sawed her in half?

Do YOU simply believe whatever anyone tells you? I mean, really "believe" it?

I doubt it. So why are you surprised that anyone would ask you to supply some supporting background before they will believe what you say?

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#90452 - 04/08/05 12:33 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Sa

Couple of problems you face, from a research standpoint, is that human beings have been known to pull off otherwise fantasic feats of strength and endurence when faced with terrible crisis.

1-Please note the words "terrible crisis" the short version is that unless your actually facing one--you can't duplicate the feat. Not something thatfolks can turn off and on at will.
If you accept the premis, you are left with it being almost impossible to duplicate in a lab--therefore its questionable.

(unlike a right hook, which all things considered, can be used effectivly by pretty much anyone in pretty much any setting)

2-Huge varibles in people make it unlikely that EVERYONE can pull it off---in survivial situations not everyone actually survives--or to put it another way, not everyone can be Hugh Glass/Bass something like that--Anyhow Glass was an mt man who was horribly mauled by a bear--he was left for dead, got buried, revived, dug himself out and managed to drag his mutilated bdy hundrds of miles to a fort.
Most folks just would have died.

Point being is even if you are tough and exactingly trained--no way to tell if you personally can duplicate such feat--and the only way to know for sure stands a pretty good chance of killing you.
In the best of all possible worlds the exsistence of folks that have survived the odds--DOES NOT MEAN "YOU" CAN.
The whole reason why we remember stories like his is that MOST FOLKS DON'T MAKE IT.

3-If there was a way to reliably and consistantly tap the hidden powers of the body and mind to perform superhuman feats--then folks such as Olympic athletes would be regularly doing it.

Finally, the burden of proof IS ALWAYS ON THE PERSON MAKING THE CLAIM--ALWAAYS.

If I say I can fly, its not your job to "prove" I can't--its MY job to prove I can.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-08-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-08-2005).]

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#90453 - 04/08/05 01:03 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sa Bum Nim,
I'm assuming that since you have the ability to extingish a candle with Chi from an impressive distance that you would be able to demonstrate your technique at will. I for one think it would be an interesting thing to see,BUT, heres my problem.

Lets imagine that cxt and myself decided to make the 6 hour drive to Marion from KC for your demonstration. Lets say you failed inyour attempt. Based on your arguement we would have wasted our time because you could still argue" just because I didn't do it today doesn't mean I didn't do it before" or " just because I can't doesnt mean that someone else cant!!!". We would have wasted our time. On the other hand if you did it you could usher us into a whole new level of understanding. So do you demonstrate the skill regularly or would we need to schedual an appointment for our class?

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 04-08-2005).]

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#90454 - 04/08/05 07:50 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Aikikai,

The incident with the woman lifting the car off of her husband DID happen. I read about it in the newspaper back in the 1970s.

She was hospitalized with severe back strain after the incident. I saw her interviewed on the news while she was in the hospital being treated for the back strain.

Can I give you a name?
No...
Can you tell me the name of anyone interviewed on your local news from two weeks ago? Doubtful...
If you can, will you remember it twenty years from now? No...unless you choose to commit that name to memory.

There are many incidents we remember, generally...but the details are lost over time, unless written down...

The skeptics tend NOT to be believe what was written down, in many cases, after a period of time...it's all hearsay...

I am, in my own right, a skeptic on many things, but I do keep an open mind and I do remember things from my past even if the details are are a bit sketchy.

I would bet that you could find the article about the woman IF you took the time to search for it...problem is, that it is going to be at the bottom of most everyones' list of priorities for any given day. It is easier to pooh-pooh it and say it is an urban legend rather than look for the truth.

So, using that story as an example is weak, at best.

chufeng

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#90455 - 04/08/05 08:49 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
Great posts guys, But the FACT still remains That just because one or all of us haven't seen it does not mean it dosen't exist. i proved that with the Million dollar analogy. Another prime example is this. If I told you my son qualified for the AAU nationals in TKD. But if you were not at the AAU region 7 qualifier to witness it that in no way changes the fact that he did qualify with a 1st in sparring and a 2nd in forms.

Do you understand the point I am making? the point is that just because the people here haven't experianced it or were not there to see it doesn't mean it isn't fact.
[/QUOTE]

Nothing a little Psych can't solve.

Ever hear of placebo effects? Sugar pills? Demand characteristics?

The problem here is that there is no PROOF whatsoever. There's a reason that there's a difference between laws and theories, laws are PROOVEN, and theories are not. This is why scientists do experiments and submit all their findings to the scientific community for review, they can't make a radical claim and expect everyone to believe it without some sort of PROOF.

Your examples don't work because there is already DOCUMENTED PROOF that these things exist, just like atoms. I hold up my hand, but I don't see any atoms, I know they exist because someone already experimented and PROVED that they do exist.

It would be a waste of time for anyone to drive out to you so you can blow out a candle. Even if you did, I wouldn't believe you, there are too many factors that could have caused it. You would have to do several scientific experiments in a highly controled enviorment, submit it to the scientific community for review, disprove any other theories they may come up with by doing more experiments, and make sure that your results can be obtained again by other experimenters in order to prove to me that your chi extinguished a flame.


I watched Dragonball, DBZ, and Gt too, don't think when I wasn't little that I didn't try to form energy balls in my hands. But I GREW UP, learned that it's all crap. I mean come on, real fights last 30 seconds, not a whole season!

[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 04-08-2005).]

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#90456 - 04/09/05 12:10 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
http://tafkac.org/faq2k/wild_index.html

This site is one of many that set out to distinguish urban legend from fact. The incident involving a woman lifting a car to save her husband/child who ever is listed here as false, its number 11 from the bottom. There is always someone to say "i saw it on the news" or that they read it in the newspaper but can never remember any details. You say you read it in the newspaper in the 70's? I understand not remembering the name of the woman. Can you remember what newspaper? What city was this newspaper from? It would actually be pretty easy to visit the local library and go through the archives as a large majority of them keep local papers on film. Maybe there is someone here who lives in your area that could check it out if they are interested and if you don't want to yourself. Where is it you live?

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#90457 - 04/09/05 04:30 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Old man, if you would like a short demo of Lin Kong Jing projection call my dojang tomorrow leave your number and I will give you a call monday to set something up.

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#90458 - 04/09/05 07:26 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


cxt -

*applause*

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#90459 - 04/09/05 07:56 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Sa,

It says that you are a TKD instructor on your Bio. Will you be performing this demonstration in LKJ?

oldman,

I am headed out to Concordia, KS next month for a wedding. Are you anywhere near there?

regards

Chris

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#90460 - 04/09/05 10:10 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
Old man, if you would like a short demo of Lin Kong Jing projection call my dojang tomorrow leave your number and I will give you a call monday to set something up. [/QUOTE]

By demonsration do you mean the extinguishing of a flame from a distance?

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#90461 - 04/09/05 11:04 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


A tape won't prove anything, IMO. It needs to be done in a controled enviorment where there are no other factors to manipulate the results.

And if you have this tremendous ability to blow candles out from 4 ft, why aren't you on T.V. demonstrating how effective you studies have been? Maybe you could join up with the human stun gun?

[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 04-09-2005).]

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#90462 - 04/09/05 01:06 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Fisherman,
Concordia is about 1/2 way across the state. Too bad, it would be fun to meet you. I'm certainly not worth that long of a drive. Enjoy Concordia!

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#90463 - 04/10/05 12:33 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
There still stands the question posed to you Sa Bum Nim. What exactly is it you are trying to prove? What exactly is it that we don't believe in? What is it that we are wrong about? Be specific.

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#90464 - 04/11/05 12:30 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by laf7773:
There still stands the question posed to you Sa Bum Nim. What exactly is it you are trying to prove? What exactly is it that we don't believe in? What is it that we are wrong about? Be specific.[/QUOTE]

It is my understanding that you guys don't believe in projection of jing(force)without touch, Better known as kong jing or empty force. I highly disagree. I am in no way a master of kong jing. If Oldman wants a demo i will be glad to show him although there are far better than me at this than I. I have had excellent results in my experiments with lin kong jing as I have posted.

Fish, I have trained in various arts for over 25 years. Shotokan, shaolin, hsing-i baga, TKD, and goju-ryu. I am TKD instructor currently. What does that have to do with anything?

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#90465 - 04/11/05 07:16 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
[QUOTE]I am TKD instructor currently. What does that have to do with anything?[/QUOTE]
It has a lot to do with things. How did you pick up the Li Kong Jing material/training methods? Were you taught this a part of your TKD training or one of the other arts?


[QUOTE]hsing-i baga[/QUOTE]
What is this? Do you mean Xingyi, (Hsing-I) and Bagua?

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#90466 - 04/11/05 09:08 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Sa

All kidding aside, folks have been claiming this for years and NO-BODY has been able to back it up.

As I mentioned before--the burden of proof is on the guy/gal making the claim--so what proof do you offer--other than your "say-so?"

James Randi is offering 1 MILLION dollars to anyone who can demonstrate paranormal powers in a lab.

Think of all the good you could do with that money--think of all the needy children you could help----why don't you help them?

All you have to do is contact Randi--the website is avalible on this forum.

You could prove your claims and help needy kids all at the same time.

What do you say?????

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-11-2005).]

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#90467 - 04/11/05 04:47 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


fish sorry about the punctuation and spelling errors i was tired when i responded.
No I had been introduced to the "embrace" as we called it a posture of Zhan Zhaung over 20 years ago during my study of kung fu. as a teen i liked the external movements better although i would stand in horse stance meditating for an hr at a time 3 times a week Yep another form of standing the stake.

CTX, I implore you to prove that I can't do it. Ohhh you can't prove a negative can you. You can only speculate,assume, and opinionate. I offered to demo it and thus put the ball in your court come see for yourself. If you choose not to then I win by default.

Wanna learn something? standing the stake or Zhan Zhaung as it is known in chinese circles, sanchin (feeling of awareness)as it is known in shotokan and goju ryu, joon bee (ready stance)as in it know in korean Is all aspects of standing the stake. There are many different postures and all are valuable

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#90468 - 04/11/05 04:55 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Sa

And I "implore" you to get a grip--say it with me slowly--THE BURDEN OF PROOF LIES WITH THE PERSON MAKEING THE CLAIM.

(ah, that would be you--the "default" here is your inability to prove your own claims--so it goes my way.
Sorry, but thats how it "really" works.)

You claim you can do it--its up to you to prove you can.
Not my job to prove you can't.

Do so and you stand to make ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!!!
Money that you can keep or donate to charity.

I "implore" you bro, please help children in need.

Or at least explain how you can live with yourself--all you have to do to help needy children is to back up what you already say you can do.
And you refuse???

Why???

Can you really be so cruel and heartless?

By doing so you can:

1-Help the helpless, a noble goal by anyones standards.
2-Prove me wrong
3-Prove all your "naysayers" wrong
4-Establish once and for all the validity of such claims.

Nope,no downside here--and plenty to gain.

So why don't you step up??????

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-11-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-11-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-11-2005).]

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#90469 - 04/11/05 05:23 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:


CTX, I implore you to prove that I can't do it. Ohhh you can't prove a negative can you. You can only speculate,assume, and opinionate. I offered to demo it and thus put the ball in your court come see for yourself. If you choose not to then I win by default.

[/QUOTE]

I've taken enough psych classes to know that this is dowright BS. In fact, just an intro psych class would tell anyone that this is the most ridiculous statement about credentials ever made. Here, I'm gonna make an example of how absurd this statement is:

I say that banging your head against a wall for 3 hrs a day will increase your intelligence 3 fold and afterwards you will know how to play piano. Don't believe it? Tough, it's LAW until you can prove otherwise, and YOU have to prove that this is not the case, I don't have to do anything, because what I say is true until proven wrong...

Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it? Well it is, because any respecable researcher/scientist/experimenter knows that unless THEY haveE the proof that their statements are correct, they are not believed by the scientific community as a whole.

It is YOUR job to prove why what you state is true, it is not our job to go out of our way and refute what you believe is law. This is the way it has been since the dawn of time.

You might be a little confused with the principle of Innocent till proven guilty, well it doesn't carry over into scientific investigations.

[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 04-11-2005).]

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#90470 - 04/11/05 05:35 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
U

"I say that banging your head against a wall for 3 hours a day will increase your intellegence 3 fold and afterwards you will know how to play the piano. Don't believe it?Tough its the LAW until you can prove otherwise, and YOU have to prove that his is not the case, I don't have to do anything, because what I say is true until proven wrong......"

Now THATS freaking funny. And its an excellent example. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

With your kind permission I would like to use it for the next Frosh logic/ret crit class I have to teach.

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#90471 - 04/11/05 05:36 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote by Sa Bum Nim -

[QUOTE]CTX, I implore you to prove that I can't do it.[/QUOTE]

OMG.

That argument is total BS. YOU have to prove that YOU can do what YOU say YOU do.

UofM - Good example. I was going to have to pull out the old "aliens in the white house" bit, but yours worked just as good.

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#90472 - 04/11/05 05:38 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


You really want to use that??? Well, I'd be more than honored if the drivel I came up with 10 minutes before my English class was used in an educational context. I'm assuming you mean high school fresh, not college fresh?

Oh, crap, now I'm late! Haha!
"I shall return!"
~Douglas MacArthur

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#90473 - 04/11/05 05:53 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
U

No, I mean college. You would shudder to find how many folks walk onto campus with little better understanding of logic than Sa has shown.

My many shortcomings include being "wordy" and having a very,very, very dry sense of humor.

Yours was pithy, on point and very funny. Makes the point in a clear and unambigious fashion which people can relate to.

And I always like to give proper attribution where and when I can.

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#90474 - 04/11/05 06:57 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

U

No, I mean college. You would shudder to find how many folks walk onto campus with little better understanding of logic than Sa has shown.

[/QUOTE]

Hehe, I believe it. I was actually immensly surprised when I wrote a paper, which I got an A on, and the TA was giving us tips on how to improve next time. Such as, "its" is posessive, whereas "it's" means it is. He also gave a lesson on the 3 "theres", their, they're, and there.

I couldn't believe at the University of Michigan that people could get in and write like that, heck, my fresh HIGH SCHOOL teacher would've failed me if I wrote like that!

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#90475 - 04/12/05 12:24 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


You know what makes me laugh is that none of you commented on the standing the stake or Zhan Zhaung as it is known in Chinese circles being sanchin (feeling of awareness) as it is known in shotokan and goju ryu being joon bee (ready stance) as in it known in Korean. These are all aspects of standing the stake. There are many different postures and all are valuable
postures.... LOL Maybe you have learned something about the internal arts.

The invite is open to CTX
All I will say is come see for yourself. I have extended the invite. If you decline then shut your pie hole. If you accept then you will become a believer if, for you seeing is believing. Since your the ones asking for proof the burden becomes yours to come see if it is possible or not.

He can video it and MPEG it so you all can see for yourself. Or you can take his word for it but I prefer he video it

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#90476 - 04/12/05 02:06 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
The James Randi Educational Foundation will come to you. If you prove you can extinguish a flame from 4 feet away in a controlled environment they will also give you $1,000,000. Then will you not only have a rather large sum of money you will also have proven to the entire world that such techniques do exist and are a reality. You could make martial arts history.

As for your standing stake comments. I think the reason no one responded to them is because the topic at hand is your claims. That just looked like an attempt at changing the subject.

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#90477 - 04/12/05 09:01 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Sa

How can you live with yourself?

What kind of man are you?

You claim to have skills that could net ONE MILLION DOLLARS for the charity of your choice--AND YOU REFUSE TO USE THEM TO HELP OTHERS?????

Dude, how can you look at yourself in the mirror??

Only a few of choices here:

1-You "really" can't do what you claim. Whichs makes you a poser, a troll and a time-waster.

2-You really "think" that you can but you don't have the stones to make the call and put it to the test in a lab.
Which is craven.

3-You really can do what you claim--but your a rotten human being who refuses to help children in need--when you could do so with ease.
Which is truly contemptible.

Pick one.

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#90478 - 04/12/05 10:36 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:

CTX, I implore you to prove that I can't do it. Ohhh you can't prove a negative can you. You can only speculate,assume, and opinionate.
[/QUOTE]

Ok, then I implore you to prove that banging your head for 3 hrs against a wall will make you learn to play piano. So come back in 3 hrs to disprove me.


[QUOTE]All I will say is come see for yourself. I have extended the invite. If you decline then shut your pie hole.[/QUOTE]

Well if you don't believe that bangin your head on a wall will give you piano playin powers, I invite you to come down and disprove it. If you decline the I auto-win, and you need to shut YOUR pie hole, now if you'll excuse me, I have some piano playing to do...

[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 04-12-2005).]

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#90479 - 04/12/05 01:49 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ctx like I said you want to see come see for yourself. You know where to find me. You give me options of who you say I am. and again you do this through your normal tactics of speculation, assumption, and opinion. If you really want to see for yourself i will give you one shot to be here be here tomorrow at my dojang at 1 pm. if your not there then i guess it isn't worth it to you to find out.

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#90480 - 04/12/05 02:13 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Sa

I guess I should be flattered that you consider my opinion worth more to you than ONE MILLION BUCKS.

Cause rather than stepping up and earning ONE MILLION DOLLARS you keep inviting me to take off work and drive down to where you may or may not be located to see you.

You expect folks to buy this????

Weak and sadly it shows no stones at all---since you failed to be man enough to pick one--I'll do it for you.

I pick number 1--your a poser.

And people wonder why folks don't take them seriously--its guys like you.

Tell you what, if your going to troll at least TRY and keep it interesting OK?

Again thanks for telling the world that my opinion is worth more than ONE MILLION DOLLARS.

Maybe you could tell my boss??????


[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-12-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-12-2005).]

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#90481 - 04/12/05 02:20 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
Ctx like I said you want to see come see for yourself. You know where to find me. You give me options of who you say I am. and again you do this through your normal tactics of speculation, assumption, and opinion. If you really want to see for yourself i will give you one shot to be here be here tomorrow at my dojang at 1 pm. if your not there then i guess it isn't worth it to you to find out.[/QUOTE]

Nice way to dodge the question.

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#90482 - 04/12/05 02:42 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am trying so so so hard.

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#90483 - 04/12/05 03:09 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Oldman

How do you think I feel?

I have learned that my opinion is worth MORE THAN ONE MILLION DOLLARS.

The power--THE POWER!!!!! HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA!!!

Donald Trump and Dear Abby are old news--stand aside lackies--I am the MILLION DOLLAR MAN!!!!!!!!

Now if I could just figure out a way to send Sa a bill for the services he thinks so highly of.

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#90484 - 04/12/05 03:45 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


SA

I got a couple of questions for you;

1) Is this an open offer, are you willing to show anyone?

2) Can we set the date that you will show us your "power"?

3) If we/I show up and you can't do this what is in it for us/me? I really don't want to waste the 10 hours (round trip) that this will be, so I would like somthing in the very unlikley event that you are unable to perform.

Waiting for your reply.

JC

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#90485 - 04/12/05 06:57 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good morning class, and welcome back to Trolls 102.

Today we will be discussing Sa Bum NimThis is interesting because we have on our hands a new type of troll. This specimine diverges from our classic Razwell type troll, which for the purposes of this lecture will be termed type A. This new type B troll does not use the classic type A flame posts with vulgar language, incoherent posts, and preschool grammar, which leads to a complete waste of forum space.

Type B still wastes space, as all trolls do, but does so in a "higher" fashion, using correct grammar and intelligent passages. Instead of vulgar, off the wall type comments frequent with Type A trolls, Type B, which has been nicknamed the "claimer trolls", will do exactly that, make bogus claims with no factual proof.

To further disrupt the natural workings of the forum, and distract forum members from more important topics, they choose to continue their claim games, completely ignoring or dodging any attempts made by other forum members to obtain proof of their claims. This is equally as destructive as type A, but can be considered more dangerous, since valuable time is wasted by regular forum members to find the proof of their claims, and since mods are hesitant to take action, since their posts are not in direct violation of forum rules.

This new breed of troll has me very worried, ladies and gentlemen, because they are much more intelligent than their "Razwell" type A brothers, hiding their equally as destructive practices within the confines of seemingly harmless and coherent posts.

Well, that's it for today, Friday's lecture I will discuss the matter of Forum Emotions, and how these came into being, focusing primarily on the rise of Smilies and their purpose online. Have a good day.

~Assistant Professor UMSR, Department of Online Etiquete.

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#90486 - 04/12/05 11:39 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I invited oldman and ctx to see for themselves that jing can be projected outside the body with no touch. Kong Jing (empty force) or Lin kong jing translated powerful empty force is real. You guys keep trying to figure out fajing. Some of us have moved past that. Gotta go stand the stake. Later

[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 04-13-2005).]

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#90487 - 04/13/05 01:05 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


How much sitting meditation do you do in comparison to standing meditation?

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#90488 - 04/13/05 07:28 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
Old man, if you would like a short demo of Lin Kong Jing projection call my dojang tomorrow leave your number and I will give you a call monday to set something up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sa Bum Nim,

You did invite me which was certainly kind of you. I was hoping that you would answer my previous question. So for clarity's sake I'll try again;

"By demonsration do you mean the extinguishing of a flame from a distance?"

That is the skill I would most like to see demonstrated and verified.

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#90489 - 04/13/05 08:08 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
I invited oldman and ctx to see for themselves that jing can be projected outside the body with no touch. Kong Jing (empty force) or Lin kong jing translated powerful empty force is real. You guys keep trying to figure out fajing. Some of us have moved past that. Gotta go stand the stake. Later

[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 04-13-2005).]
[/QUOTE]


Sa Bum Nim,

While it is true that you invited me I'm a bit confused. It appears you might have missed my previous question. What have I been invited to witness?. For clarity's sake help me out.


"Old man, if you would like a short demo of Lin Kong Jing projection call my dojang tomorrow leave your number and I will give you a call monday to set something up".


When you say "a short demo" do you mean that you are will be demonstraiting the extinguishing of a candle from a distance using Lin Kong Jing projection?

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#90490 - 04/13/05 09:30 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Sa

This game is getting stale.

You have been offered ONE MILLION DOLLARS to prove your claims---you refused.

You have been asked if you would be willing to compensate folks who make the trip to see you--if you can't do what you claim---you refused.

Is there any reason at all to continue this charade?????

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-13-2005).]

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#90491 - 04/13/05 11:31 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


This guy is a class B troll. A sneaky, deceiving troll, who doesn't use flames, vulgarity, or bad grammer.

But he still adds to the degeneracy of the forum, because his posts offer nothing. There is no useful information in his posts.

Stop feeding this troll.

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#90492 - 04/13/05 12:43 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


SA please read and respond. I am giving you a 2nd chance but the rest is up to you...

JC


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MN JC:
SA

I got a couple of questions for you;

1) Is this an open offer, are you willing to show anyone?

2) Can we set the date that you will show us your "power"?

3) If we/I show up and you can't do this what is in it for us/me? I really don't want to waste the 10 hours (round trip) that this will be, so I would like somthing in the very unlikley event that you are unable to perform.

Waiting for your reply.

JC
[/QUOTE]

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#90493 - 04/13/05 09:54 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


UofM Shorin Ryu, my opinion is you wouldn't know the difference between a troll and a real martial artist even if they cracked you in the mouth.

UofM Shorin Ryu,I have no useful info is that right? That must be why none of you commented on standing the stake or Zhan Zhaung as it is known in Chinese also being sanchin (feeling of awareness) as it is known in shotokan and goju ryu also being joon bee (ready stance) as in it known in Korean. These are all aspects of standing the stake.

cxt,
Put up some of YOUR cash if your so sure I can't project jing without touch. Put YOUR money where your mouth is. The question i should ask you is do you have those kind of stones.

Oldman, to make it crystal clear. I told you to call my dojang and set up the appointment for a demo of LKJ (jing projection without touch) Does it really matter whether I put a candel out from a distance, roll a ball across a table or move a piece of paper using jing all of which I have done in the past. For you I think it will be the ball rolling or the paper moving. Why not the candle? because I really don't like the way you have treated me.

MN JC, you ask for compesation if I can't project without touch. Understandable, I have to ask you then what is my compensation from you if I can? What is that knowledge worth to you? $1.00 , $100.00 , $10,000.00 or possibly Priceless?


You all talk about the internal martial arts but can not see any further than the external skin of the arts. How pathetic and sad.


ctx is right about one thing. This is getting stale.

I guess you guys can live in the dark about KJ and LKJ. Just email me about this you would like to comment to me further about LKJ or energy projection because there is no doubt in my mind is you people are clueless about empty force.

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#90494 - 04/13/05 10:21 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Your mad because members highly experienced in these arts didn't instantly believe you when you made your claims. And then, you didn't provide any sort of proof after people asked you nicely.

My question would be this: You want us to drive x hrs to you, to watch you MAYBE succeed at 1 of your claims. You also want us to bring our wallets, so to speak. Well, if someone does waste 5 hrs or more of gas money, their whole day, and you can't perform, what do they get?

Nothing, you want us to show our cards, but you won't even let us see if you HAVE cards. Play the game fair, or no one's gonna want to play with you.

And no one commented when you had a legit post because they were too distracted by your claims and lack of evidence.

[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 04-13-2005).]

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#90495 - 04/13/05 10:26 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Clueless? Maybe; but at least they're not so heartless as to refuse to gain $1-Million for charity had they the chance.

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#90496 - 04/13/05 10:32 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


The problem here is that the other members of the forum are nearly unanimous in their opinions about your claims, and what they think.

Your the odd duckling, the class clown, and your antics are becoming tiresome. There are enough McDojos out there as it is, and since you are acting in a similar manner to people who claim their art is the best, super kung fu grip, touch of death, destructive energy bullets, whatever: You made a fairly unbelievable claim, didn't back it up with evidence, and have repeaatedly dodged the question or tried to change the subject. These are typical McDojo behaviors, which is understandably why you are not receiving the support you were expecting.

[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 04-13-2005).]

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#90497 - 04/13/05 11:34 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


UofM, This is actually simple and you state it yourself. The forum members don't like it if is different, foreign or unknown to them. to bad. I have in no way dodged anything. I choose what I comment about and if I respond to someone's post. You do not choose that for me.

OK people,
Lets say for a second I came here with the intention of being a troll to irritate and get others into an argument with me.
Then it would be me who was the victor regardless having succeeded in my intention as I was able to control you all into doing exactly what I wanted you to.

Now on the other hand lets say I can do as I have claimed which I CAN. Whether you believe it or not. Then I am still the victor you just don't know it yet.

Either way you look at it I have proven the mind is the most powerful and dangerous weapon on the face of the planet. And I was victorious over you by either controlling you into doing as I wanted or by being able to do what I say I can either way I WIN

Have your Psych class Ponder that for a while?


[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 04-13-2005).]

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#90498 - 04/13/05 11:48 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by hardluck:
Personally I think Sa Bum should have been gone long ago. People who post things like fact and then don't answer the questions posed of them or circumvent them are trolls imo.

I don't mind his presence here, but I know his ass would be gone in a flash if he posted and responded elsewhere like he does here.

Its completely unprofessional to ignore people with valid questions or circumvent the question by attempting to change the subject.

I'm not calling for a ban, I'm just saying hes very disrespectful. The fact that he overlooks questions posed to him has been brought up before. Many Many Times.


No one has to believe you either, but Your first post here ever was about smothering a flame with your chi. You will forever be marred by that in my mind. And you will never have any proof that you ever did. Nor will anyone else. They would have won the million dollar prize by now.

[This message has been edited by hardluck (edited 04-07-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

Since someone else already stated it much better than I ever will, here you go. Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks your avoiding questions, claiming things without offering proof, etc.

[QUOTE]UofM, This is actually simple and you state it yourself. They don't like it if is different, foreign or unknown to them[/QUOTE]

I'd like to know where I said that? I said that your claims are much like a Mcdojo's claims, not that the members of the forum poo-poo any new ideas.

People have simply seen claims like this before, and therefore don't believe them. But I would prefer not to talk on behalf of the whole forum any more, I have said too much on their behalf already.

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#90499 - 04/14/05 12:08 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I offered to demonstrate for the most skeptical it can't get much more legit than that. ken I sit 1 1/2 times the length of time I stand.

Gotta go stand guys till next time.

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#90500 - 04/14/05 02:12 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Sa Bum Nim,

No one commented on your "standing the stake" reference, as it is known in different languages because no one cares. You sound like a broken record. We are not talking about standing the stake; we are talking about your claims.

Let me put it to you in simple terms. Provide proof of your claims to a competent authority or don't post it here. I can tell you now i will not tolerate the manipulations you are imposing on your "demo". It's real simple contact this site. http://www.randi.org/ They will come to you, they will not charge you anything if you can't perform and they will pay you one million dollars if you can. It can't get any easier than that.

No one here is going to pay you to do you little demo and i really don't expect you to pay anyone else if you can't. But that's what you are hoping for isn't it? You put the offer out on the table for people to come see for them selves knowing full well no one is close enough to you to be willing to make the trip. Therefore you feel you are on safe ground. You can make all the claims you want and no one will care to waist the time to come see you fail. With that no one can prove you wrong. There is fault in this logic though. You have been given the information for a source who pretty much everyone here would believe, will come to you at no charge and pay you a rather large amount of money if you can prove your claims in a controlled setting. You refuse. Why do you refuse to contact JREF? Because you can't do what you claim.

[QUOTE]The forum members don't like it if is different, foreign or unknown to them.[/QUOTE]

This is a copout and purely false. I my self don't like people making claims that i have heard numerous times before yet never prove them.

[QUOTE]I have in no way dodged anything. I choose what I comment about and if I respond to someone's post. You do not choose that for me.[/QUOTE]

You have dodged questions. As far as someone choosing what you respond to, that would be me. Simply put, stay on topic. The topic is your claims, not standing the stake. If you are here to debate your claims then do so and don't dodge the questions posed to you. If you are not going to answer questions directly then there is no use for you here.

Yes i am going to start restricting you. Why? If i don't this game of ping pong will go on for ever.

Contact www.randi.org and prove your claims, or prove them to a member i trust not to be biased, or drop it. Leave if you want but you will not continue to post lies in this forum. Push my buttons and you are gone. You will NOT waste any more band width with this nonsense. Prove it or move on.

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#90501 - 04/14/05 02:56 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks laf. I realize I added fuel to the fire as well, so I'll apologise and keep my mouth shut on this subject too.

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#90502 - 04/14/05 03:05 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I'm getting a head ache.

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#90503 - 04/14/05 03:53 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Say what you will. I can't help that I have grown to a level that most forum members don't understand but I am not ashamed of it to me principal is worth far more than money and frankly I don't need the money. If I told you I have over 100,000.00 worth of toys in my garage you will probably call me a liar too. However, that is true also want to see? http://hometown.aol.com/herocowls/index.html
If I told you I used to have a recording contract with a major label or that my family has a street named after them you would probably say I was full of it too. But it doesn't change the fact that it is still all true.
Just so you know your not dealing with some Choad who is full of it. I don't need the great randy's money I am fine don't worry. You see laf some of us do, and can do what we say. And others on the web talk about it. I also founded and ran a non profit anti-drug org. So don't talk about giving to the helpless and needy because I do my share to help society. I have in no way hid who I was or who I am. However, I divulge what I want about myself when I want. So if you people want to call me a troll or treat me like one go ahead.

[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 04-14-2005).]

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#90504 - 04/14/05 11:32 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Your comparisons fall short. No one asked or cares about your toys. Everything you mentiond is quite easily verifiable, unlike your other claims.

[QUOTE] I don't need the great randy's money I am fine don't worry. You see laf some of us do, and can do what we say. And others on the web talk about it. I also founded and ran a non profit anti-drug org. So don't talk about giving to the helpless and needy because I do my share to help society.[/QUOTE]

This is a copout. If you are interested in helping people this money could go a long way. The truth is you can't do what you claim and you would be found out if you contacted this organization.

Put up or shut up. It doesn't get more simple than that.

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#90505 - 04/14/05 11:37 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I will not waste anymore bandwidth on this. Sorry all, he must be telling the truth, after all he is batman....

Lord help us.

JC

SA, I was going to email you but you never provided your email. Hmm, guess I should not have been shocked.

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#90506 - 04/14/05 11:43 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just email the address listed on his homepage, that appears to be his dojang. At least they will be able to help you get in contact with him.

Joel

your "toys"-haha

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#90507 - 04/14/05 01:00 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Laf this is not a cop-out in any way shape or form. You say this only because I don't do what you want me too in the way you want. You are truly laughable. Yes, Laf it is all easily verifiable Well, not really by your own logic unless you see it for yourself you remain a skeptic right? The question is why would I lie about any of it? I haven't. Like I said believe what you want. Laf you are the one who needs to shut his pie hole and prove I can't do what I say I can.
Laf I didn't know you were affiliated with the org. you keep wanting me to verify this through. Oh your NOT then why would I even consider it because you say it will make you believe and others also?

I showed you some of my toys just so you would see I don't need the money and for you to try to tell me what to do and then suggest I use the money for what you want me too is idiotic and has NO bearing on whether I can do as I have said. You clearly only want me to prove it your way well this isn't Burger King and since I am the one who decides when, where, and why I show my skills that ball is in my court and always will be. So If you can prove that I can't do as I have said. THEN STEP UP AND PROVE IT. COME ON LAF PUT UP OR SHUT UP.


MnJC, Your right I am Batman to the kids in the pediatric wards, day cares, and parades near here. I also do spiderman. Is that ok with you? It makes their day. I will clue you people in on something I learned a long time ago either you are Yin, or Yang oriented. positive or negative. You deciede. and the only thing you guys know in my opinion is yang thus remain in darkness to the internal. I really have nothing more to say about this Believe what you want.

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#90508 - 04/14/05 01:13 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


*yawns*

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#90509 - 04/14/05 01:40 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok, you win Mr. Vassey. You are Batman, Spiderman and have super powers.

Enjoy and good luck.

JC

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#90510 - 04/14/05 01:44 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
I have today sent this e-mail to the dojo where Sa Bum Nim proclaims he is from;

Dear Sir

There is an individual taking part in discussions on the www.fightingarts.com discussion forum. He/She is making fairly outrageous claims (Easily done from behind a keyboard) in the Energy section of the forum.

While you may not care what this individuals postings may be, they list your web-site as their homepage. As such, when they post, people believe that the posts are representative of your school.

You may like to find out who has been posting in your schools name and indeed what they have been claiming.

At fighting Arts, I like to inform schools where I believe they may be being unfairly represented.

Should you wish to contact me, please feel free to do so.

Regards

JohnL
(Forum Moderator)

I wonder if they know him, or his views and abilities.

JohnL

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#90511 - 04/14/05 04:15 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks John,

I was heading there myself.

JC

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#90512 - 04/14/05 09:41 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Why is this thread still open?

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#90513 - 04/14/05 09:49 PM Re: Troll Stoppers?
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's just getting interesting.

Joel

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#90514 - 04/15/05 12:43 AM Re: Troll Stoppers?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
[QUOTE]Laf this is not a cop-out in any way shape or form. You say this only because I don't do what you want me too in the way you want.[/QUOTE]

All i want you to do is prove your ridiculous claims to ANY competent authority. Any blind test will do for me. If you cannot or will not prove these claims you will NOT discuss them here.

[QUOTE]You are truly laughable.[/QUOTE]

Personal attacks will only get you banned.

[QUOTE]Yes, Laf it is all easily verifiable Well, not really by your own logic unless you see it for yourself you remain a skeptic right?[/QUOTE]

You keep making reference to things that anyone could easily check up on as if it's the same thing as you claims about projecting jing or chi. These other claims you keep using as a comparison are things that are common place and have been seen or experienced by several people. Your claims about projection have been proven by NO ONE. There is a big difference even if you can't see it.

[QUOTE] Laf you are the one who needs to shut his pie hole and prove I can't do what I say I can.
Laf I didn't know you were affiliated with the org. you keep wanting me to verify this through. Oh your NOT then why would I even consider it because you say it will make you believe and others also?[/QUOTE]

Your time here is short lived so i will let the above statement slide. No i am not affiliated with the James Randi organization. The reason i want you to prove you claims through them is because i know they will do what ever they can to make sure you don't cheat, they are an unbiased third party. They take away any and all excuses you have about proving your claims. You don't have to travel or put up any money. All you have to do is show up and extinguish a flame from 4 feet away or move a ball or whatever display the two of you decide will prove your claims. You refuse only because you can't do it.

[QUOTE]I showed you some of my toys just so you would see I don't need the money and for you to try to tell me what to do and then suggest I use the money for what you want me too is idiotic and has NO bearing on whether I can do as I have said. You clearly only want me to prove it your way well this isn't Burger King and since I am the one who decides when, where, and why I show my skills that ball is in my court and always will be. So If you can prove that I can't do as I have said. THEN STEP UP AND PROVE IT. COME ON LAF PUT UP OR SHUT UP.[/QUOTE]

Did you read this before you posted it? I don't care what you do with the money but to say you would have no use for it is a lie. Even if YOU don't need the money you could donate it. It's that simple. I am not the one making the claims, YOU are. YOU have the burden of proof, not me. What i do have is the right to remove you from the site for inflammatory statements and personal attacks. What i do KNOW is there have been several people before you making the same claims, i have met with them in person and they ALL failed. You are no exception. You keep running circles around when, where and how you will prove these claims knowing you will never do it. You rather offer to prove it to someone from the forum you think will not come to you and refuse to prove it to someone who WILL come to you and pay you. This IS a cop out.

[QUOTE]I really have nothing more to say about this Believe what you want.[/QUOTE]

I do, i believe you are a liar and a fraud and until you prove otherwise get off the forum. You are done.

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