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#90023 - 03/14/05 08:23 AM Re: Zhan Zhaung/Standing the stake
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]
After 3 months of standing I was up to over the hr of standing each day which I did for another month then. I did an experiment even though I knew if I did I would lose all the progress I gained.but I wanted to see if it was real and IT IS!!!! I was able to suffocate a candle flame with my chi from over 4 foot away by simply pointing at it and concentrating.[/QUOTE]

First off why would what is in bold cause you to lose everything you had been training? That is just absurd. Not to mention suffocating a candle flame with your chi is also absurd imo. You can suffocate a candle with a perfectly executed strike, but not chi. Please by all means...the next time you wish to test yourself get a digicam that can record some video that would be great. I would really like to see this chi suffocation.

Also, wow. After only 3 months your standing for 1 hour every day? It has been 3 months for me and I can only stand for about 8 minutes every other day. I find myself burning out on standing posture if I do it any more than this. I originally could stand for no longer than 1-2 minutes when I began.

I think your a prime candidate for internal burnout if you are standing for an hour a day everyday. If you do have a background in meditation already, though, I can see this being possible. It's going to literally take me years to get to the point where I can stand for an hour.


[This message has been edited by hardluck (edited 03-14-2005).]

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#90024 - 03/14/05 01:54 PM Re: Zhan Zhaung/Standing the stake
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hardluck If you could only stand for 1-2 minutes when you started and after 3 months have worked up to 8 min. every other day. You must be doing somthing wrong or you may not be as dedicated as others. Just my opinion.

You don't have to believe The outcome of my experiments. I really don't care. The internal art I am training in is called Lin Kong Jing and Standing is it's main focus. I also do Yang Style Tai Chi Daily as well do at least one shoalin, xingi and baqua set a day. I then teach TKD 2 hrs. a day 5 days a week.

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#90025 - 03/14/05 02:27 PM Re: Zhan Zhaung/Standing the stake
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lin Kong Jin is nonsense. Also 40 minutes a day for standing is sufficient.

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#90026 - 03/14/05 02:45 PM Re: Zhan Zhaung/Standing the stake
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
Hardluck If you could only stand for 1-2 minutes when you started and after 3 months have worked up to 8 min. every other day. You must be doing somthing wrong or you may not be as dedicated as others. Just my opinion.

You don't have to believe The outcome of my experiments. I really don't care. The internal art I am training in is called Lin Kong Jing and Standing is it's main focus. I also do Yang Style Tai Chi Daily as well do at least one shoalin, xingi and baqua set a day. I then teach TKD 2 hrs. a day 5 days a week.

[/QUOTE]


Well you still haven't stated why performing such an excersize/expirament would be worth "losing everything you have worked for."

You state the fact that you suffocated a flame as fact. You should be able to backup fact with proof.

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#90027 - 03/14/05 02:58 PM Re: Zhan Zhaung/Standing the stake
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sa bum nim, this method of meditation and chi development is the first excercise I have ever learned, over 3 years ago. The only thing is I haven't really done it consistently like that or for long periods of time. But what I have been taught is to concentrate on your Chi flowing from your Dan Tieng out through your hands and gathering in between the two palms. Basically imaging a ball of water, spinning clockwise. It feels great cause after some time you can really "feel" the chi and your hands tingling. I will try your method of standing and sitting for longer periods of time.

Have you ever heard or tried of moving people with your chi without touching them?

[This message has been edited by p4rtyb0y69 (edited 03-14-2005).]

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#90028 - 03/14/05 06:01 PM Re: Zhan Zhaung/Standing the stake
Anonymous
Unregistered


BaguaZhang:

I would have to disagree with you. Lin Kong Jing Qigong is not nonsense. Some of the people that talk about it may be, but I personally found the exercises to be quite beneficial...at least for me personally. Have you ever studied it or from what are you making your observations from?

As to the amount of time...40 minutes is a bit short. I know Xingyiquan people that do Santi alone for longer than that. In the method I was trained, there were three postures per set and working one set you needed to be able to do each posture for about an hour to get maximum benefit.

To each their own...but I found it to be a very useful exercise.

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#90029 - 03/14/05 06:21 PM Re: Zhan Zhaung/Standing the stake
Anonymous
Unregistered


Fisherman:

You said:
"I guess the reason that I posed the question about standing after a cool down goes back to the cool down thread I started a while back.
The main reason I woud do a cool down after a hardcore standing session is so that I do not walk away from the session with 'head fire'. This is something that my teachers and theirs as weel have put great emphasis on."

Depending on how they teach, they need to be worried about that. If you begin to do a particular qigong set without having opened at least the microcosmic orbit, then that can well be an issue that you have to deal with. That is one of the main reasons that the first thing I teach is getting the orbits open and running smoothly. It takes a bit longer to "front load", but the progress made in the other exercises more than makes up for it.

You said:
"I had a rather interesting conversation with one of my teachers today about li kong jin.
I feel that it is somehow manipulating force so that the energetic frequency of another human being to cause an effect on that person. Kind of imposing your intent to a point where you alter their vibrational frequency and possibly cause instability?
I have no experience with this type of teaching, so it was just my opinion"

Actually, you are pretty much on it with that. The moving people without touching them is the most often misunderstood portion of the exercises...and most often abused.

Just as a Reiki master may have a student put their hands on them (the master), the same is true about moving someone. I am not talking about ki balls or anything of the sort...so no DBZ stuff here!!! The concept is very much the same as with the Reiki instructor. This is not the be all end all and is NOT the goal of Lin Kong Jing. Trust me...my old Shifu (Rich Mooney) progressed to some very advanced levels and the moving of people is not the goal. The expression of power (jin) is the goal. But the manipulation of another is basically the way that you describe it.

You said:
"Is li kong jin applicable on its own as a 'system' or is it a set of principles to apply to an art that you already know? (ie Xingyi)"

It depends on how much one wants to devote to it. As a health system, it is quite powerful. To progress into the martial side, you really have to devote ALOT of time to it as the seated meditation is even more time than the standing. If you already do an internal art, it is a great addition to it. As for a martial arts system in and of itself, no...it does not qualify as one. For that I highly recommend Yiquan. The postures and sets of postures are almost identical (they have the same roots after all) and it adds more martial exercises as well.

HTH!

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#90030 - 03/14/05 07:59 PM Re: Zhan Zhaung/Standing the stake
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by BaguaZhang:
Lin Kong Jin is nonsense. Also 40 minutes a day for standing is sufficient.[/QUOTE]

I also highly disagree with Baguazhang.

As for the experiments i did after the short time of standing were just that and experiment to see what would happen The only way i can figure it is that my other training had built my chi more than i thought, then standing like i was before the experiments just built/tuned my chi more is the only way i can figure it. It is my understanding that LKJ is to compliment the external sytle as any style that requires movement is through the use of muscles and qualifys as external. Remember Yin & Yang people. One without the other? is that possible?

I have learned in 20 plus years of traiing is that my style is just that my style, and is a derivitive of all the training i have done. Shoalin, baqua, xingi, yang tai chi, shotokan, and TKD are what i have focused on. Taking what has worked best for me from each style and incorperating it together.

LKJ is an excellent way to build chi/ tune into it and has given me some amazing results.

As far as application of LKJ it is surely not to put out a candle from across the room or move a golf ball. However, doing so freeked out my wife and son who are both BB in TKD.

No problem, don't believe me. I am not here to make you a believer in LKJ or make anyone a believer in me or my abitity's. I figured as much, that if i posted the results to my experiments that the nay sayers would appear to take a shot. But let me say to all the nay sayers, seek out a master of LKJ and Witness it first hand I'll Bet you change your mind
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]


[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 03-14-2005).]

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#90031 - 03/14/05 08:30 PM Re: Zhan Zhaung/Standing the stake
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sa Bum Nim:

I could not disagree with you more when you say that LKJ is to compliment the external. One of the primary purposes of LKJ is to fatigue the primary working muscles to the point where the secondary resting muscles have to take over. The longer this is done, the easier it makes it so that a person can can use this muscles group and there by reduce the amount of li (physical strength) is required to deliver a technique. I made a long post about this and you can go look it up. The problem with arts like Shotokan and Tang So Do (both arts that I have a black belt ranking in my past studies) is that their stances and methods of moving do not lend themselves to the internal. Again, as I indicated in an earlier post, the primary goal of LKJ training is the proper and more powerful expression of jin...or internal power. And an external art is just not going to get you there.

As to the reason why people are looking at your posts a little funny when it comes to your claims. Consider the following and maybe you will understand why it is that warning bells went off and red flags wnet up:

#1. You list a variety of different arts and you spelled the majority of the names wrong. Hey, I am a bad speller too...but generally the student of an art spells the name of the arts that they study correctly.

#2. You list two or three arts that no one has ever heard of. Not so much a problem...there are obscure arts in the various different traditions. But, you list what is seeminly American style names as the founders. Again, not necessarily a problem. But, the number of Western individuals that have actually created viable combative arts or inherited a legit system can be counted on your 10 fingers and have most of them left over.

#3. In listing the names of the Chinese arts that no one has ever heard of, you seem to mix different styles of transliterating the names to English. Again, not necessarily a problem...but it does set off warning bells.

#4. When asked about all of this, you get angry about it, shift the direction of the conversation and then never address the questions at all.

Any of these points alone mean nothing. Yet, when all combined together, it makes folks instantly see you as a DBZ type of person. As for me, I'd still like to know who it was that taught your LKJ instructor LKJ. I'd like to know more about these arts you mention that I can find nothing about. I'd like to know what style your "Sijo" created or inherited. Most of all, I'd like to see some video of you doing what you claim you can do. As a matter of fact, if you'll get me the video I will create a web page for it and post it on my own server for everyone to check out. Until then, I certainly cannot take your claims seriously. You can take that personal if you like, but I assure you that it is not just me. I am just trying to tell you where alot of the thought process is on this with alot of us. Others can certainly speak on their own...but I would bet that their thoughts are close to my own.

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#90032 - 03/14/05 08:54 PM Re: Zhan Zhaung/Standing the stake
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sa Bum Nim:

Here is the information I referenced in my last post. Perhaps it will be helpful, perhaps not. Sorry to everyone who has had to read this twice now, but I thought it was related enough to the topic at hand to re-post it.

===================

Jin (or jing as it is commonly written) is what is used to develop an "internal" punch (or any other technique for that matter). Qi is the fuel that produces jin.

Within the internal martial arts, there is a process that is taught. Li is the strictly muscular force that everyone uses. This is what is trained first. This is what the Chinese also refer to as Ming Jin or Obvious Power. It is called that because when you see someone performing their art, it is obvious to you that they are using strictly muscular force.

As you train the li, one of the things that you are taught are the Jin Dian (energy points) and Jin Lu (energy path). The Jin Lu would roughly be the equivalent of a structural line as developed by an engineer. The Jin Lu is the most effective pathway through the body for expressing kinetic energy. Along the Jin Lu are the Jin Dian or energy points. These are the critical points that must come into alignment in a particular way to develop the Jin Lu to effective express kinetic energy. Once a person as developed or has begun to develop this, they have what the Chinese refer to as Zheng Jin or whole body power. This simply means that instead of just using the localized arm and shoulder muscles to deliver a punch or a strike, they are now effectively using their whole body from the ground to the point of delivery through the Jin Lu to punch or strike. This is where the martial arts aim to take you...internal or external.

The next level of training is where what the Chinese refer to as Li Yu Qi He or Strength and Qi Combine comes into play. Through generalized and/or system specific qigong exercises, you learn how to increase qi in the body and to effectively transform that into jin and then to use the jin in a technique (strike, punch, kick, throw, etc.). At this point you begin to develop what is called An Jin or hidden power. It is called hidden because when viewed it appears to be this mysterious small action or movement that can launch someone several feet. When you read some of the writings of the older Chinese and Japanese/Okinawan masters, why do you think they said that they only needed to see someone perform one form or a part of it? Because the way that they express themself physically with such an activity easily tells you how skillful they are and alot about what they know. I can watch a Goju-ryu karate-ka perform any of their kata and in a moment or two know whether or not they are any good. Sometimes it is as simple as seeing the hand formations that they use. Sometimes it is just seeing how they move in transition in sanchin-dachi or performing a part of the Sanchin kata. For a Chen Shi Taijiquan and/or Bajiquan, I can tell from the stomp that they do. In Taijiquan or Yiquan, it is just a matter of watching them do push hands or participating in push hands with them.

So...to answer the original question...no, in general, you don't use qi in punches...you use jin. Now...if you want to talk about advanced levels of training such as Qi Yu Yi He (qi and intent combine) and Yi Yu Shen He (intent and spirit combine) it can be a different story...but that is a different thread altogether.

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