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#89114 - 02/02/05 10:10 PM Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


Greetings friends,

I am interested in hearing about and comparing the combat strategies/fighting philosophies of the 3 main Internal Martial arts styles, Xing Yi, Baghua Zhang and Tai chi chuan.

What startegies/philosphies do they employ and how do they differ between the arts?
How is concept of ki employed in each art?
Why do the differences between these styles occur?

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#89115 - 02/02/05 10:27 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


In Taijiquan you never go force on force. You lead and follow the opponent. There is a saying, if the opponent wants to come in, let him, if wants to go, help him go out. He can't find you or get away from you.

[This message has been edited by serious pain (edited 02-02-2005).]

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#89116 - 02/02/05 11:47 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


Great Question.

Only a person like, I believe, Sun Lutang can give a COMPLETE answer.

I respectfully believe that even Yang Lu Chan or Yang Cheng Fu can give a COMPLETE answer.

Granted that all 3 systems have some common underlying energy developement priciples, but the detailed manipulation / utilisation for combat purposes, I think, are quite different.

So anyone able to give a complete answer with cross references between all 3 has to have mastered all 3 systems at a very high level.

There may be such a living person around; just that I don't know him or her.

I myself certainly like to hear from these people.

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#89117 - 02/03/05 12:30 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the response serious pain...

Hi ButterflyPalm

I realise that significant knowledge of all three systems is going to be uncommon.

I was thinking more along the lines of having respective practitioners of the three styles would comment individually on their own arts until we have three seperate pictures forming so that we might analyse and debate the differences.

I think that if we can get some detailed answers this will become a very interesting thread... on the other hand Ive been known to be wrong.

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#89118 - 02/03/05 04:52 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Shonuff

This has been discussed a bit earlier...
http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/cgi-b...y+Arts&number=7

IMO the combat straegies are a lot easier to discuss than the energetic priciple involving each of the 3. I'd agree with Butterfly that to truly understand each style would take someone that has trained extesively in each.
But it's always fun to scratch the surface and see what is underneath.
I am on my way out the door to train - more detail later....

Chris

PS - If you haven't read it yet, you may want to grab a copy of, "Power of the Internal Martial Arts" by BK Frantzis. It gives a good general overview if the IMA's

[This message has been edited by Fisherman (edited 02-03-2005).]

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#89119 - 02/03/05 05:02 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Butterfly, if we suddenly begin to require that level of knowledge/insight before we open our mouths, this forum will go very silent, very fast )

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#89120 - 02/03/05 01:16 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


That link brought me back to the Energy arts index. When I searched for the topic before I didnt find it.

I dont think it would kill people to bring it up again and who knows, people who werent here when the old discussion came up might have a new perspective.

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#89121 - 02/03/05 01:34 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
It wouldn't hurt to read through the things that have already been discussed so that you have a frame of reference to ask questions from.

Try this
http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000381.html

If that doesn't work, scroll down the page and look for the thread named - Different internal arts

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#89122 - 02/03/05 02:23 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fisherman:
It wouldn't hurt to read through the things that have already been discussed so that you have a frame of reference to ask questions from.

Try this
http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000381.html

If that doesn't work, scroll down the page and look for the thread named - Different internal arts

[/QUOTE]

Apologies for the harshness of my response Fisherman, Im just used to seeing people brushed off in this forum alot.

Your analysis of the three arts is interesting, but it does sound a little biased towards Bagua. Do you practice all three arts?
If not, would it be possible to get more detailed descriptions of the xing yi and Tai chi from anyone who does practice it, or is Fishermans description totally accurate?

Regarding Bagua, your description makes it sound like Bagua has no specific methods, just whatever suits the moment. Since there are a variety of solutions to any given combat situation Im curious as to what is considered an appropriate response within the system of Bagua Zhang?
Also what are the differences among the arts methods of ki manipulation within combat?

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#89123 - 02/03/05 08:18 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by nenipp:
Butterfly, if we suddenly begin to require that level of knowledge/insight before we open our mouths, this forum will go very silent, very fast [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG])[/QUOTE]


Yea, but I've put in some back-up [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]; if you notice, I did put 'complete' answer in capital letters; just so anyone is welcomed to give 'in-complete' answers. Whew! that was close [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#89124 - 02/04/05 06:12 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
[QUOTE] Your analysis of the three arts is interesting, but it does sound a little biased towards Bagua. Do you practice all three arts? [/QUOTE]

I can see that my views are biased towards Bagua primarily because that is what I train. I do have a minimal knowledge of Xingyi just because it has been quite heavily incorperated into the YiZong Bagua system. As far as Taiji goes, I have no experience with it other than the empty form that I picked up at the Shaolin Kung Fu school when I first started my MA training.

[QUOTE] Regarding Bagua, your description makes it sound like Bagua has no specific methods, just whatever suits the moment. Since there are a variety of solutions to any given combat situation Im curious as to what is considered an appropriate response within the system of Bagua Zhang? [/QUOTE]

Baguazhang does have specific methods, they are simply to difficult to try and put into words without visualization. It is true that you are using whatever suits the moment, it is primarily catered towards a) What the situation dictates b) What my opponent is doing & c) What is my opponent's response to the stimuli that I am giving him. Therefore, there has to be a good deal of methods that you learn that way you will know what to do in the given situations. (As a side note; it is never going to be a block punch scenario if that is what you are getting at - there are to many ways that the body moves for that to work effectively).

[QUOTE] Also what are the differences among the arts methods of ki manipulation within combat?[/QUOTE]

I am still desperately trying to figure this out with in the context of Bagua - all I can say is that the energy manipulation relies heavily upon the use of the mind, body, and intent.

Regards
Chris

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#89125 - 02/04/05 07:25 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
It seems to me that to extricate chi from technique is like taking animation from an animal. Physically it's there, but has no life force. The life force cannot do anything without the body.

The 3 systems are simply different methods of expressing the same principles animated by the same energy.

Each system if taught correctly contains all the major components, it only really depends on what schools/teachers you are able to study under and choosing the best one for you.

To look for differences is like looking at 3 faces of the same jewel or 3 roads to the same mountain top, it's quality you need to look for and not differences.

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#89126 - 02/04/05 10:59 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fisherman:
Baguazhang does have specific methods, they are simply to difficult to try and put into words without visualization. It is true that you are using whatever suits the moment, it is primarily catered towards a) What the situation dictates b) What my opponent is doing & c) What is my opponent's response to the stimuli that I am giving him. Therefore, there has to be a good deal of methods that you learn that way you will know what to do in the given situations. (As a side note; it is never going to be a block punch scenario if that is what you are getting at - there are to many ways that the body moves for that to work effectively).

[/QUOTE]

Hi Fisherman, and thanks for the response.

Regarding Bagua methods, the comment u made about it not being a block punch based system is pretty much what I'm looking for... Its not block punch based, but it is...?

e.g. WTF Taekwondo is a mid to long ranged striking based system with emphasis on leg techniques, prevailing strategies include countering the opponents energy by intercepting it before it develops or by evading and attacking before the opponent recovers.

I realise the strategies may be quite extensive, but most systemic arts have some guiding concepts that the others stem from (similar to what serious pain wrote about Taijiquan).

Bossman,
I realise that the 3 arts in question lead to the same place, hence Im not asking about the destination. As you said they are three distinct paths. Why are they distinct, how are they distinct? My goal is not to determine if one is better or which to study, mearly to realise understand and embrace the differences. Many people feel the key to unity is to try to ignore differences, to me this is a mistake as differences exist and ignoring them is the same as supressing our fear of them. Understand and embrace is the way forward because if we can do that then we realise that the existence of another way does not invalidate our own.

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#89127 - 02/05/05 02:12 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
I didn't say 3 distinct paths, because they are not so distinct. IMHO the problem is that you end up in a time consuming, tail chasing exercise and lose sight of the purpose of your study by immersing yourself in technical pedantry. I know many students who spend their time running around the base of the mountain looking at the bottom of each path and never get to climb to the top.



[This message has been edited by Bossman (edited 02-05-2005).]

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#89128 - 02/05/05 06:34 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Posted by Shonuff
[QUOTE]Regarding Bagua methods, the comment u made about it not being a block punch based system is pretty much what I'm looking for... Its not block punch based, but it is...?[/QUOTE]

Bagua is not a block puch based MA, rather it is founded on the ability to change while engaged with an opponent. The art of changing is what alows you to overcome the opponent's attacks and defenses and do what needs to be done to win the fight.
Instead of blocking someones' punch I am going to use that punch against them.

Posted by Bossman
[QUOTE]IMHO the problem is that you end up in a time consuming, tail chasing exercise and lose sight of the purpose of your study by immersing yourself in technical pedantry.[/QUOTE]

This is an excellent point and is why I can't tell speak much for Taiji - but that doesn't bother me at all. I am more concerned with my Baguazhang training.

Regards
Chris

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#89129 - 02/05/05 04:39 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


Personally I prefer a subtle blend of muay thai, brazilian jiu-jitsu, wrestling, judo, and boxing. These have the added benefit of actually having some sort of worth in the fighting world.

Peace out!

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#89130 - 02/05/05 04:52 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Glad you shared that little gem pcm, that really helped us all here....

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#89131 - 02/05/05 08:33 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


So am I correct in surmising that no one with knowledge of these systems wants to participate in this debate?

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#89132 - 02/07/05 04:02 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


sorry to join so late, but i am currently studying chen tai chi and "five elements"theory and I ching and its relation to Bagua. I feel that silk reeling, push hands, and other two person drills teach or help you learn combat/philosophy. If you have some particular questions i would like to help as best i can. I ream to whole fourum to catch up here

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#89133 - 02/07/05 06:22 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


bagua is formulated with the five elements system. you can understand what is going on if you understand the I ching. its sort of like a program that trains intuative responses.
It like tai chi, and xing yi, share certain principles on how to interact with incoming force. however they all -seem- to produce diff, outgoing forces. but that is due to conseptual structure, in reality the share the same principles for that as well ...........lots more just chat

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#89134 - 02/07/05 08:28 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


hope your still around shonuff

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#89135 - 02/08/05 06:23 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
tu.dents posted...
[QUOTE]bagua is formulated with the five elements system. you can understand what is going on if you understand the I ching. its sort of like a program that trains intuative responses.[/QUOTE]

What is the correlation between the (wuxing) 5 elements and the 64 hexagrams of the I-Ching and how do they relate to Baguazhang?

Regards
Chris

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#89136 - 02/08/05 05:13 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


as it seems that tai chi is formulated with Yin/yang theory, a deep study will reveal not only a simple of understanding of yin and/or yangs qualities...but the spectrum in duality between y/Y.
the five elements are represented qualities along the spectrum. they create and are created by the interactions of the various dualities, hot/cold,hi/low,empty/full,soft/hard and the important this, that and the 10,000 other things that can be assinged qaulities along the y/Y spectrum.
the trigrams represent (in code, of sorts) the manifestations that arise from the tao. each line of the trigram guides you to a general sense of location in the (sorry but the word works) matrix that is created by the interaction of y/Y sectrum and elemental manifestation.
combining the trigrams creates an even more acurate location, represented by the "gua"

Tai chi teaches you how to sence through understanding y/Y qualities of balance, pressure, structure, and motion, the world as it is manifested around you. proper developement yeilds an acurate interpretation of the sensation of being where,what, and how you exsist in the "matrix"
bagua teaches how to interprate trough use of assining qaulities with the hexagram in much the same way. thats the short why/how bagua uses the i ching.

somebody count how many times i used "manifest"

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#89137 - 02/08/05 08:07 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok maybe i didn't use manifest as many times as i thought, i must have been thinking it alot

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#89138 - 02/09/05 03:50 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by tu.dents:
ok maybe i didn't use manifest as many times as i thought, i must have been thinking it alot [/QUOTE]


You are manifestly a person who is a manifestation of a tiny portion of the large matrix of the human race who comprehens the manifested interplay of the Yin & Yang which gave primodial manifestations to the unknowable Tao in all it's many manifestations [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Sorry, couldn't resist [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#89139 - 02/09/05 01:38 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL, manifest no more apologies, but thank you. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#89140 - 02/10/05 10:28 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


Chris:

With regards to the wuxing and Bagua (both the art and the 8 hexagrams), they break out as follows:

Element: Wood
I-Ching: Wind, Thunder
Hexagram: |:: (zhen), :| | (xun)

Element: Fire
I-Ching: Fire
Hexagram: |:| (li)

Element: Metal
I-Ching: Sky, Lake
Hexagram: | |: (dui), | || (qian)

Element: Water
I-Ching: Water
Hexagram: :|: (kan)

Element: Earth
I-Ching: Earth, Mountain
Hexagram: ::: (kun), ::| (gen)

(NOTE: To view the hexagram correctly, rotate counter-clockwise so that the last or far right piece of the hexagram is on the top).

Now, as this applies to Baguazhang...I cannot state with alot of certainty as it is not an art that I have trained extensively in. I would assume that the main four (4) sequences or cycles of the wuxing (generating, weakening, controlling and insulting) effect palm changes in relation to the attacks being delivered. But, that may also depend on which flavor of Baguzhang you practice.

Hope that is of some help to you.

Michael

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#89141 - 02/10/05 12:18 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Michael

Thanks for the information. That is a bit more of what I was looking for.
Now to try and see how this correlates to the 64 post heaven lines of YiZong Gao style Baguazhang!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#89142 - 02/10/05 04:29 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


Chris:

well...the 64 come from the 8...so it should not take too long. We all expect a full written report by Monday! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Michael

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#89143 - 02/10/05 06:04 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


i am currently working on translating/representing the tao te ching through i ching.
why i dunno just to be familiar with it in that way.
right now i am trying to figure out the best method of assinging qaulites to the whole stanza, or each line. i'm try to figure out the out come of either method and if they reflect each other.
i dont think thats the thing to focus on so much as the greatest accuracy to each occerance manefested.
eventualy i will be able to do the same in chinese which may be more accurate.
yes geeky i know

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#89144 - 02/11/05 04:05 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
[QUOTE]Originally posted by meijin:
Chris:

well...the 64 come from the 8...so it should not take too long. We all expect a full written report by Monday! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Michael
[/QUOTE]


Show off. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#89145 - 03/03/05 03:14 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
bump

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