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#89124 - 02/04/05 06:12 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
[QUOTE] Your analysis of the three arts is interesting, but it does sound a little biased towards Bagua. Do you practice all three arts? [/QUOTE]

I can see that my views are biased towards Bagua primarily because that is what I train. I do have a minimal knowledge of Xingyi just because it has been quite heavily incorperated into the YiZong Bagua system. As far as Taiji goes, I have no experience with it other than the empty form that I picked up at the Shaolin Kung Fu school when I first started my MA training.

[QUOTE] Regarding Bagua, your description makes it sound like Bagua has no specific methods, just whatever suits the moment. Since there are a variety of solutions to any given combat situation Im curious as to what is considered an appropriate response within the system of Bagua Zhang? [/QUOTE]

Baguazhang does have specific methods, they are simply to difficult to try and put into words without visualization. It is true that you are using whatever suits the moment, it is primarily catered towards a) What the situation dictates b) What my opponent is doing & c) What is my opponent's response to the stimuli that I am giving him. Therefore, there has to be a good deal of methods that you learn that way you will know what to do in the given situations. (As a side note; it is never going to be a block punch scenario if that is what you are getting at - there are to many ways that the body moves for that to work effectively).

[QUOTE] Also what are the differences among the arts methods of ki manipulation within combat?[/QUOTE]

I am still desperately trying to figure this out with in the context of Bagua - all I can say is that the energy manipulation relies heavily upon the use of the mind, body, and intent.

Regards
Chris

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#89125 - 02/04/05 07:25 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Bossman Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
It seems to me that to extricate chi from technique is like taking animation from an animal. Physically it's there, but has no life force. The life force cannot do anything without the body.

The 3 systems are simply different methods of expressing the same principles animated by the same energy.

Each system if taught correctly contains all the major components, it only really depends on what schools/teachers you are able to study under and choosing the best one for you.

To look for differences is like looking at 3 faces of the same jewel or 3 roads to the same mountain top, it's quality you need to look for and not differences.

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#89126 - 02/04/05 10:59 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fisherman:
Baguazhang does have specific methods, they are simply to difficult to try and put into words without visualization. It is true that you are using whatever suits the moment, it is primarily catered towards a) What the situation dictates b) What my opponent is doing & c) What is my opponent's response to the stimuli that I am giving him. Therefore, there has to be a good deal of methods that you learn that way you will know what to do in the given situations. (As a side note; it is never going to be a block punch scenario if that is what you are getting at - there are to many ways that the body moves for that to work effectively).

[/QUOTE]

Hi Fisherman, and thanks for the response.

Regarding Bagua methods, the comment u made about it not being a block punch based system is pretty much what I'm looking for... Its not block punch based, but it is...?

e.g. WTF Taekwondo is a mid to long ranged striking based system with emphasis on leg techniques, prevailing strategies include countering the opponents energy by intercepting it before it develops or by evading and attacking before the opponent recovers.

I realise the strategies may be quite extensive, but most systemic arts have some guiding concepts that the others stem from (similar to what serious pain wrote about Taijiquan).

Bossman,
I realise that the 3 arts in question lead to the same place, hence Im not asking about the destination. As you said they are three distinct paths. Why are they distinct, how are they distinct? My goal is not to determine if one is better or which to study, mearly to realise understand and embrace the differences. Many people feel the key to unity is to try to ignore differences, to me this is a mistake as differences exist and ignoring them is the same as supressing our fear of them. Understand and embrace is the way forward because if we can do that then we realise that the existence of another way does not invalidate our own.

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#89127 - 02/05/05 02:12 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Bossman Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
I didn't say 3 distinct paths, because they are not so distinct. IMHO the problem is that you end up in a time consuming, tail chasing exercise and lose sight of the purpose of your study by immersing yourself in technical pedantry. I know many students who spend their time running around the base of the mountain looking at the bottom of each path and never get to climb to the top.



[This message has been edited by Bossman (edited 02-05-2005).]

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#89128 - 02/05/05 06:34 AM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Posted by Shonuff
[QUOTE]Regarding Bagua methods, the comment u made about it not being a block punch based system is pretty much what I'm looking for... Its not block punch based, but it is...?[/QUOTE]

Bagua is not a block puch based MA, rather it is founded on the ability to change while engaged with an opponent. The art of changing is what alows you to overcome the opponent's attacks and defenses and do what needs to be done to win the fight.
Instead of blocking someones' punch I am going to use that punch against them.

Posted by Bossman
[QUOTE]IMHO the problem is that you end up in a time consuming, tail chasing exercise and lose sight of the purpose of your study by immersing yourself in technical pedantry.[/QUOTE]

This is an excellent point and is why I can't tell speak much for Taiji - but that doesn't bother me at all. I am more concerned with my Baguazhang training.

Regards
Chris

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#89129 - 02/05/05 04:39 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


Personally I prefer a subtle blend of muay thai, brazilian jiu-jitsu, wrestling, judo, and boxing. These have the added benefit of actually having some sort of worth in the fighting world.

Peace out!

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#89130 - 02/05/05 04:52 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Glad you shared that little gem pcm, that really helped us all here....

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#89131 - 02/05/05 08:33 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


So am I correct in surmising that no one with knowledge of these systems wants to participate in this debate?

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#89132 - 02/07/05 04:02 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


sorry to join so late, but i am currently studying chen tai chi and "five elements"theory and I ching and its relation to Bagua. I feel that silk reeling, push hands, and other two person drills teach or help you learn combat/philosophy. If you have some particular questions i would like to help as best i can. I ream to whole fourum to catch up here

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#89133 - 02/07/05 06:22 PM Re: Combat Philosophies of the three principle Internal styles
Anonymous
Unregistered


bagua is formulated with the five elements system. you can understand what is going on if you understand the I ching. its sort of like a program that trains intuative responses.
It like tai chi, and xing yi, share certain principles on how to interact with incoming force. however they all -seem- to produce diff, outgoing forces. but that is due to conseptual structure, in reality the share the same principles for that as well ...........lots more just chat

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