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#88709 - 12/27/04 01:07 PM sorry guys, just not true
Anonymous
Unregistered


http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/an_empty_force.htm

since there's no evidence to support these invisible forces, it's almost redundant trying to disprove them, but some people are tenacious, and of course wont even believe documented science experiments.
the youngest published scientist of her time was 12 years old, and was easily able to show that invisible forces such as touch therapy were fake using a double blind experiment.
Embarrassed enough? Look at experiments in transcendental meditation, and while your at it, feng shui
theres nothing as unreliable as your own perception

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#88710 - 12/27/04 01:44 PM Re: sorry guys, just not true
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I don't believe you can move things or people with out touching them either. That is NOT a function of chi.

If the medical benefits of chi were a fabrication or a figment of the imagination. Then why are hospitals paying for certain members of staff to attend a 3+yr college for acupuncture? Why does the military offer tae chi and yoga for pain and stress relief?

What experience do you personally have with internal arts?

What purpose does your post serve? Other than to reaffirm what has already been said HERE on this very board?

As for no evidence supporting the existence of chi. We could go back and forth all day posting links to "academic" sources for both sides of the argument.

Please feel free to post any experiments that PROVE acupuncture doesn't work.

I've been on the receiving end of PP KOs. While i'm not a supporter of using such techniques effectively in a real situation i'm also not one to "play the game" in order to convince others something works.

The problem is people like you take a test like this one, that has NOTHING to do with chi, and try to apply it to a broader scale. This article doesn’t disprove the existence of chi. It only proves what we have been saying all along, you can’t use chi to move things or people. Chi is not a supernatural power, nor does it constitute any kind of “psychic event”.

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#88711 - 12/27/04 02:16 PM Re: sorry guys, just not true
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow! So the empty force had some kind of an effect on 2 people? Lol, just kidding. I for one never thought ki could move an object. No.

I saw that test on therapuetic touch done by the little girl on a show on TV. On the same program they performed a test to see if external qi could influence the growth of bacteria in a petri dish. They used a supposed advanced qigong teacher, a sham qigong practitioner, and therepuetic touch practitioners for a control and comparison, the same therapuetic touch practioners who falied the girls experiment. The results indicated that only the external qi qigong teacher could influnce the bacteria, either positively or negatively. But the show admitted itself that the result do not show conclusive proof. It would require much more study and analysis and larger groups to study. They made a point of that on the show when talking about the external qi experiment. However, they totally downplayed that fact during the segment on the therapeutic touch and the little girls experiment.

Here is an article which explains how the logic of skeptic debunkers, such as the Amazing Randi, is incorrect and not really scientific at all.
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/GTaylor1.php

I'm not saying I beleive qi can move people in a real situation, but only that many aspects of it are not at all disproven, and shown to be useful. Saying it is, would be like saying an IMAist could never beat an MMAist, you don't know for sure, it's never really happened. I think the problem is people think it is actually about creating qi balls and throwing them, and that is not the case at all.

[This message has been edited by serious pain (edited 12-27-2004).]

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#88712 - 12/27/04 02:23 PM Re: sorry guys, just not true
Anonymous
Unregistered


Also, if a scientist proved a philosphy or practice in western medicine was not quite correct, or an understanding of a disease wasn't totally right, they will change it. It does not prove them to be nonsense. Just cause therapeutic touch had some understandings that may not be toally right does not totally disprove the practice as nothing more than placeobo. That takes scientific analyses, not just saying, " you didn't do exactly what you said you would do by your own standards and claims, so that makes you a fraud" . You can't just test method in simplistic ways, and then claim because it does not totally conform to the person being tested's understanding of it, that it is false.

Here are some articles of tests just as scientific, and just as double blind as a skeptic debunker test anyways. Neither are final conclusive proof, only preliminary http://www.clubs.psu.edu/up/psufalundafa/homepage/meditation%20&%20medical%20research .htm

Of course, being skeptical of ki blasts is a good thing. But qigong is not that

[This message has been edited by serious pain (edited 12-27-2004).]

[This message has been edited by serious pain (edited 12-27-2004).]

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#88713 - 12/27/04 02:50 PM Re: sorry guys, just not true
Anonymous
Unregistered


The first published study, to ever show behavour can have a positive effect on immunity to viruses, studied Tai Chi. http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2003/A/20036202.html

From a site called PubMed, National Library of medicine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1353653&dopt=Abstract

Articles about energy development technology http://spectrum.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/14/3/149 http://www.diamondhead.net/sbtm.htm http://www.somatics.de/Oshman.htm

Heat and electricity seem part of the spectrum of qi. It is why hot will go to cold and vice versa, and not something else. Energy expresses itself according to qi balance. http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8070042

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#88714 - 12/27/04 02:55 PM Re: sorry guys, just not true
Anonymous
Unregistered


We could go back and forth all day posting links to academic sources for both sides of the argument.
humor me

the following is a quote by robert l park, a leading authority on voodoo science / pseudo science / junk science
Much of what is termed alternative medi cine is part of this ancient wisdom myth. We are somehow expected to believe, for example, that long before it was known that blood circulates or that germs cause disease, people had determined the precise locations of hundreds of acupuncture points, and catalogued the diseases that can be treated by stimulating them. In fact, long before vivisection was first practiced, Chinese medicine included elaborate charts showing meridians on the human body, imaginary lines along which the acupuncture points are distributed. The problem is simply that nothing can be found in actual human physiology that corresponds in any way to these meridians.
basic rule of thumb: if it's not testable, it's not true
Are you conceeding that chi exists, but it has no measureable effect?

Also, read up on placebo effects, they do more than you'd think.
The military offers tai chi and yoga because it relieves pain and stress, you answered your own question.
(maybe the military could offer masturbation classes?)

does acupuncture on animals disprove the placebo effect? no!
read up on good student / expectant teacher effects in a psychology book next time you're in the science section of your library (god forbid).

the effects of accupuncture can be felt by any sort of needle stuck into the same general viscinity because of the chemicals it causes the body to release.

Millions of dollars are spent investing on voodoo science, even by the government(/hospitals/etc.). If they prove false, then theyre out some money... if they win, they win big, so its an investment that is worth it in their eyes.

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#88715 - 12/27/04 02:57 PM Re: sorry guys, just not true
Anonymous
Unregistered


IMA is not DGBZ

Here is post quoted from another discussion board, posted by my friend who I know, who teaches TCM.-

" Qi has been subjected to this kind of cross cultural parsing error to the point of obscurity. No-one who understood what is implied by Qi would say they don't beleive in it. Saying you don't beleive in Qi is like saying you don't beleive in 'relationship' or "influence".

Qi is an old idea. The model I will try to explain is at least 2300 years old as it is clearly laid out in the Huangdi Neijing, the seminal work of chinese medicine. While essentially a medical text it also lays out a metaphysical model that is basic to chinese philosophy. The oldest character for Qi represented vapours rising. In time the radical for grain was placed below to show the steam that rises from cooking millet. What happens when you smell food cooking? Your body responds; stomach gurgles, mouth waters, etc. So something about cooking food exerted influence on you. Qi.

What is the nature of this influence? It requires that we introduce two other philosophical concepts that have been subject to ideational mutilation, Yin and Yang. We often see the simplistic folk models of Yin and Yang that are lists of things associated with the two concepts. ( Yin is feminine, cool, dark, receptive/ Yang is masculine, warm, light, creative). These lists are not strictly wrong, yet they obscure the reason the lists were made in the first place.

' Between heaven and earth are qi and it's laws' ; between Yin and Yang are Qi and it's laws'. This classic statement points to the most important aspect of Qi, it's context. So qi is the interplay of Yin and Yang. This brings us back to the nature of Yin and Yang.

Yin is the tendency of things in the universe to coalesce and slow down. Yin is the tendency to crystalization and struction. Yin is the tendacy of matter to fall down and shadows to form in opposition to light.

Yang is the tendency for things to change and become other things. The tendency to dissolve and tendency to grow. The tendency for clouds to boil and skin to tan.

All objects of sense experience are an interplay of Yin and Yang. This includes individual things as well as systems. This is why the concept of Taiji is the great terminus or the grand ultimate, because it includes all things in the universe. Yin and Yang are linked and one cannot be discussed without invoking the other. Structure cannot be divorced from function.

They stand in mutual opposition.
They are rooted in each other.
They define each others limit.
They transform into one another.

When we discuss the balance of Yin and Yang at any given moment or in any given state we are talking about Qi. It is important to understand that Yin and Yang are not absolute states of being, rather they are part of a moving frame that can applied in a variety of ways to any situation. There are many situations where the place of Yin and Yang is considered to be understood and relatively predictable so they are left out of the discussion. One of these places is in the context of the relationship between body and mind.

When we look at the basic idea of body and mind in Chinese philosophy we are talking about Jing(essense), and Shen( spirit, or summation of mental-emotional aspects of the individual). The relative interaction of Jing and Shen is the normal context for the discussion of Qi in martial arts. When someone says 'lead qi to your fingertips" the implication is to focus the mind on the fingertips to perceive the interaction between Jing and Shen at that point, hence qi. However, you could also say, ' absorb the opponents force to use their strength against them.' In this case Yin is found in the reception and relaxed connection of the defender ( song) , and the Yang is found in the aggresor's force( Li). The resulting Qi is how the interaction plays out. If the defender is subtle and skilled the qi will be the qi of a throw perhaps. If the aggressor is more subtle or skilled the result may be the qi of a successful hit.. If the aggressor is very subtle they may be able to become more Yin that the defender and so invert the frame of Yin and Yang.

So to come back to the idea 'Do you beleive in qi?' may be more usefully phrased, ' Do you beleive in the interplay of structure and fuction? Do you beleive in the interaction of order and chaos?"

Anyways, that's one post I found interesting. So it sounds like one of the first classifications of Yin and Yang, supposedly had to do with sunlight vs. a shadow, or light vs, dark. This is because through history, teachers would teach mankind through oracles such as the I ching, and possibly used prisms to teach about oneness. Such as how everything is vibration , and octaves. Galaxies, stars, planets, moons, humans, light, matter, vapour, sound. The emperors had no problem with this as long as they could become immortal, lead be turned to gold, or if their futures could be predicted.

Qigong is cultivation of the mind's place in the universe, to be open to all power all creation, flowing. Buddhas, and cultivators of buddhahood do a meditation posture in which the first finger bends down to connect to the thumb, symbolising the ego's will bowing to the will of heaven. The Tao has the way of wu wei, action through non action, doing things in accordance with the eternal Tao and nature, and not through self, or the human mind's will. Jesus said you reap what you sow, but that it would be full, pressed down and overflowing. In a Path that became religous over time, there was a saying( in reference to the universal spirit), " your will be done, not mine, in me and through me", and goes on to say, " show me what I must do this day to be a channel of your blessing to all." The more consciouss of the eternal manifestiation of the great priciple, that which creates, consitutes, governs, sustains and contains all, the more in accordance to it's way and flow someone can be, in my understanding. Which can use both physical and mental activities.

I think the Taoist cultivation is quite concerned with pre natal qi- http://www.kheper.net/topics/I_Ching/IChing_and_dna.htm

These clips show that Taiji is related to opening and closing the chest and internal body. Creating Yin and Yang( up and down) from Taiji. And also related to breathing, as well as opening and closing, microcosmic circular energy flow http://vc4.hit.bg/taiji_cinna_1.avi http://vc4.hit.bg/taiji_cinna_2.avi

[This message has been edited by serious pain (edited 12-27-2004).]

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#88716 - 12/27/04 03:08 PM Re: sorry guys, just not true
Anonymous
Unregistered


Also, read up on placebo effects, they do more than you'd think.
The military offers tai chi and yoga because it relieves pain and stress, you answered your own question.

Do they offer sugar pills too?

Qi can be felt quite strongly in practice, and this is not at all hypnotism or wanting to beleive. So since I feel it and practice it, I will not be convinced it is a placebo that simply.

IMO and as I understand-
The great principle, is that which creates, constitutes, governs, sustains, and contains all within all.

There are laws of the absolute, and laws of the relative.

Absolute laws or the Great Law. The same law governs everything from biggest to smallest, beginning and end. Life, mind, truth, love, is all, four points of the base of a pyrymid in a specific order with spirit at the tip as one. All is vibration.

The laws of the relative are law of polarity, law of rythm, law of cause and effect, law of gender.

There is also the law of evolution, like 10 steps forwrd 9.9 steps back, SORT OF, and law of love.

There is a so called principle of inter- generation, inter-inhibition. And creation, stasis, degeneration, destruction.

Ultimately ki is related to the principle of the oldest name of God. Yod He Vau He. It is know in many cultures, Yawheh, jehova, and Ya Ho Wa Ho are afew. The interplay father, mother, son, and universal holy spirit reborn. All is vibration, and octaves of it. http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/trigrams/archetypes.htm

IMO qigong is ancient and prehistoric culture. The perfect condition is inflowing and outflowing cultivation at the same time. Some qigong starts by connecting to the universe, through the palms, feet, ba hui, or even fingers in mudra positions( fingers are like antennas). Some qigong is very concerned with inward cultivation and sealing the senses, cultivating lotus position and pointing fingers inwards towards the wrists like a hollow fist or hands at dantien. But I think perhaps cultivating lotus position, with energy flowing out the hands is a more advanced posture.

Qi practices also circulate energy and connect flows and acupoints, this is why if you bend forward you will next bend back, if you open you will next close.

So atlantis and ancient civilisations were destroyed, but some remnants of the culture remained. The knowledge had to be kept hidden to kings and emperors while the people with the knowledge could still work in society, either teaching about spirituality, or working to improve the world in other ways. Gypsies had the tarot card, which start and end with the fool card, a fool for the universal will. The Kaballah is also related as well as the I ching.
http://www.prs.org/gallery-kabblh.htm
http://chikungintl.com/+-trigramcl.jpg
http://kabooom.com/laterheaven2.gif
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec16.html http://faculty.clintoncc.suny.edu/facult...ry/chemistr.htm

There were many prophecies in the past about the current age. Many qigong methods were to be kept absolutely secret until this millenium.
http://www.keysofenoch.org/html/giza_update.html http://www.lyghtforce.com/Giza/ http://www.think-aboutit.com/Spiritual/edgar_cayce.htm

Ancient spiritual groups in the past

http://essenes.net/lifein.html http://www.crystalinks.com/dss.html http://www.edgarcayce.org/ancient_mysteries/ancient_index.html

Some cool clips here from 1700 year old qigong from China and Tibet http://www.threegeese.com/qipage3.html http://www.possiblesociety.org/dayanqigong.htm

Hopi prophecy http://www.crystalinks.com/hopi2.html http://www.clearwisdom.net/eng/2000/nov/20/scf112000_1.html http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/21/6096.html http://www.railriders.com/store/article/18?&archive_link=yes
http://www.atlantis.to/spirituality-articles.htm

History to repeat itself? http://www.climatehotmap.org/photos/index.html

Check out how similar the Dayan qigong posture at the very bottom of this page, is to Yoga http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong-syllabus.html

And WKK's 18 Lohan hands are very similar to Yoga http://wongkk.com/chikung/lohan.html

Yoga http://www.yoga-videos.net/ http://www.atlantis.to/Products/about-tibetan-yoga.htm http://www.yoga-tibet.com/index.html

Qigong http://www.threegeese.com/qipage3.html http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong-syllabus.html http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong.html http://www.qinway.org http://www.falundafa.org/eng/media.htm

All these styles have been kept very secret throughout history

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#88717 - 12/27/04 03:58 PM Re: sorry guys, just not true
Anonymous
Unregistered


it's pleasant idea and all, but how is the history of qi and ideas of yin and yang helping your discussion?
chi is related to elecricity? there's nothing magnetic in our body!
::sigh::
it's super cool that you're linking me to yoga videos and all, but now resting all of chi on an ultimate and omnipotent god doesnt provide any more truth.
i thought this board would be fun

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#88718 - 12/27/04 04:42 PM Re: sorry guys, just not true
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
How old are you? You don't seem to be able to follow what we are saying. Your opinion of this seems to only come from discussions and testing that you don't seem to understand.

So how exactly has chi been disproved? How is doing tai chi and yoga for pain relief a placebo?

Maybe you can explain the physical effects felt from doing qigong exercises? Mind you i was never told what to look for. When i first started this type of exercise all i was given was the steps of the exercise and told to write and tell him what i felt. How could be experience be the same as every other practitioner if i didn't know what they felt?

Like i said, what experience do YOU have with any of this? People are real quick to judge something till they experience it themselves.

One more thing. I hope you have more business here than this, otherwise your trolling. So come up with some valid proof or go study for your driving test.

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