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#88453 - 11/24/04 07:26 PM lets get this stuff straight already, and hope it dies down
Anonymous
Unregistered


First off, as i stated in an earlier post, i'm new to energy arts, trading it for techniques plus timing, guaging and musha (no mind), and yes, i did like DBZ. i do ask however, that instead of deleting me, that you guys go ahead and positively correct me if i'm wrong so that i'm not perpetually misinformed. I dont buy into the radki idea as far as the non projectile attack abilities are concerned. i say , lets stick to what we know. Ki is real. beyond some of the above human (so as not to say superhuman) feats done by the eastern world, we dont know where ki fits into the raidiant/non radiant energy spectrum, like light, thermodynamics, radio, and kinetic energy spectrum. there has been speculation that it is electrochemical manipulation of nervous and synaptic response, as suggested by studies done with thermo and radiological visual equipment. for example, the existence of energy signatures of limbs no longer attached to the body in question. not proven, but compelling. science not withstanding, ki may be a force that is inexplicable. what we do know is that the radki concept as a superpowerful form is not real. what radki can do is help visulization once proper meditaion is achieved. it depends on the person if it suits them or not. i take it as no different than the apple technique. to aid in learning to plausably visualize things, you can imagine the sensations of physical interaction with an apple in your mind. taste the apple, feel it filling you, and see it getting smaller as you eat it. that doesnt mean the apple is there. likewise, you can visualize charging up an attack, or putting a ki ball in front of your hand to maximize attack strength as a means to help visualize using the fundamentals of ki in healing and combat, kind of like the unbendable arm or 1" punch, where you obviously are not projecting ki in the fantastic sense, but are using it to increase physical prowess, as i sincerely doubt that one could launch a person of equal or greater size onto their behind with an inch of momentum using only muscular strength. i wont jab at a person that wants to use radki as an imaginative, and maybe more modern, way to help build and use REAL ki. o9ne could hardly expect modern western citizens to acheive the same mindframes as those who are used to ki being a way of life and not an art, and to dismiss a person who really uses radki as a training aid as opposed to a real force or art is wrong if it is actually helpful to the individual. i do believe that anybody claiming remote ki projection in any form ( with the exception fof real astral projection, which gets confused all to often with being able to make an energy version of oneself with superhuman abilities that can interact with the physical universe) deserve to be enlightened to the facts, or be verbally bludgioned if they choose to be offensive or bold faced liars about it. obviously, the human hand is not as hard as concrete, but masters of the arts can break cinderblocks. thats ki, or breaking your hand so many times that your bones are a whole bunch denser than they were. not a single one of those masters was ever recorded breaking a cinderblock from 20 feet away. if you need to imagine your energic aura charging you up and flowing about, and using it to visualize the movements and manipulations of your ki, as i have found helpful for me during my musha drills, do so if it helps. but if you want to stop in mid fight to charge up a fireball, then get the pine box ready, cuz you might try it with the wrong person and wind up getting your legs broken faster thasn you can say " kamehameha!!!!!"

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#88454 - 11/24/04 11:43 PM Re: lets get this stuff straight already, and hope it dies down
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I understand where you are coming from, but there is a tiny flaw. Radki isn't legitimate training. I don't know where radki came from but so far i've seen at least 3 so called "radki masters" admit to no formal training and no real knowledge of what they are talking about. Their "technique" is a loose mesh of cartoon moves and bits of information they read on the Internet from legitimate IMA sites.

The main problem i have with radki is the illusion that one can obtain useful levels of chi manipulation with simple, and usually wrong, forms of meditation and visualization. Meditation does help with clarity and visualization is instrumental in various aspects of IMAs but there is MUCH more to it than just that. Many of the "techniques" or exercises they use either don't really achieve anything or could be harmful. Even so called "legitimate" qigong exercises can be harmful. You have to be careful whom you learn your qigong from also. I was using a set i found in a book in Singapore a while back that gave me headaches, kept me from sleeping well and just made me feel "off". Kempoman pointed out they were causing running fires and that i should stop, i felt better in a matter of days.

Most of the radki guys don't have a clue as to how chi is used. Then again, most people don't either. Something i've been trying to make clear all along is there is a big difference in ignorance and stupidity. In this case, most either has no information on the subject or they have been given wrong information, these people are just ignorant (and that's not a jab at anyone). Then you have people who have the same lack of knowledge or wrong info but refuse to listen to anyone else, this is stupid.


[QUOTE]likewise, you can visualize charging up an attack, or putting a ki ball in front of your hand to maximize attack strength as a means to help visualize using the fundamentals of ki in healing and combat,[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately it doesn't work this way either. I'll venture to say about 50% of any martial arts, even IMAs, is body mechanics. Proper body mechanics in IMA allows chi to flow properly allowing for better striking. It's not necessarily chi that improves the strike but a combination of things with chi as a tool. If you could improve on your strikes by simply visualizing a chi ball in front of your hand then you would need little else. The fact is you need focus, intent, structural alignment among others to increase effective striking. This is one of many places radki fails.


[QUOTE]kind of like the unbendable arm or 1" punch, where you obviously are not projecting ki in the fantastic sense, but are using it to increase physical prowess,[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately the unbendable arm isn't a very good example either, it's just a trick. It works because it causes you to work against yourself with out really knowing it. In the first step for example, you are told to extend your arm, make a fist and use all your strength/muscle to try and keep your arm straight. When you do this you are tensing your bicep, so your actually HELPING them bend your arm. The second time you are told to relax and only use what is needed to hold you arm out. In doing this you are using your triceps and now working against the other person. While is it a good lesson in body mechanics it has nothing to do with chi.

Finally, radki is NOT an art. It's more of a name given to teenagers with a little info and an over active imagination. The good thing is at that age most people had some pretty far fetched ideas about martial arts or anything else for that matter. The good thing is it may get them involved in legitimate training. It may be DBZ for these guys, for me it was Kung Fu Theater on the USA Network. Everyone has to start someplace.

Here is a more detailed break down of the unbendable arm.
http://ofinterest.net/ua/arm2.html

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#88455 - 11/25/04 01:56 AM Re: lets get this stuff straight already, and hope it dies down
Anonymous
Unregistered


thanks a bunch for the info. i'm glad someone with legitimate knowledge was kind enough to reply. my biggest thing is, now that i've gotten to the level of fighting that i think would be apropriate for a beginning to energy arts, i'm trying to find the means of learning, but little information or credible teachers are around. i dont call myself a martial artist, just a fighter. i trained in timing, guaging , and musha and tied it into my amateur wrestling background and my 5 years of aikido, so i'm just a pit fighter if anything. obviously not terribly qualifed as a ki master. thanks though

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#88456 - 11/25/04 10:38 PM Re: lets get this stuff straight already, and hope it dies down
Anonymous
Unregistered


My qigong teacher showed a little bit different version of the unbendable arm. First he runs his hand up the back of your arm, and then you hold the arm out and have a partner press down on it, it should be strong. If he or a partner runs his palm down the back of your arm, it should have been more difficult to hold up the arm. It's just for fun but it really seems to work, my teacher say he is a BSE, bullshit expert .

[This message has been edited by serious pain (edited 11-26-2004).]

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#88457 - 12/17/04 02:39 PM Re: lets get this stuff straight already, and hope it dies down
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by laf7773:
I understand where you are coming from, but there is a tiny flaw. Radki isn't legitimate training. I don't know where radki came from but so far i've seen at least 3 so called "radki masters" admit to no formal training and no real knowledge of what they are talking about. Their "technique" is a loose mesh of cartoon moves and bits of information they read on the Internet from legitimate IMA sites. [/QUOTE]

Radki came from me under another screenname as a teenager. A guy named MisteryShadow created a site that involved experiments that a few online friends of mine and I eventually developed into what I eventually termed as Radki. In circles where the term "Radki" is used widely, it is used in contrast to the slang term "Tradki". Radki is short for Radical Ki (as in radical practices waaaaaaay off from the normal exercises) and Tradki is short for Traditional Ki (as in the established methods).

Luckily for me since I was part of Radki since the beginning, it was still in its purest form and was a lot like Kiaijutsu with DBZ visualizations. Our main flaw was thinking that the visualizations were what was actually happenening as oppose to our Kiai actually being what does the work.

After realizing this fact, I dropped the visualizations and started realy getting into developing my Kiai to enhance my abilities in the martial arts (at the time, TKD and Kickboxing) and grew as a person much more quickly.

However, over time, Radki spread so fast amongst other fans of DBZ that people got lazy and started posting abridged versions of the original Radki techniques I learned and its now just a deluded pile of crap instead of being a flawed version of Kiaijutsu.

[QUOTE]
The main problem i have with radki is the illusion that one can obtain useful levels of chi manipulation with simple, and usually wrong, forms of meditation and visualization. Meditation does help with clarity and visualization is instrumental in various aspects of IMAs but there is MUCH more to it than just that. Many of the "techniques" or exercises they use either don't really achieve anything or could be harmful.[/QUOTE]

This is due to a major loss of the breath patterns that were originally part of Radki but were lost to pure visualizations over time after the original Radki-ka (people practicing Radki) switched to various Tradki styles.

[QUOTE]
Most of the radki guys don't have a clue as to how chi is used. Then again, most people don't either. Something i've been trying to make clear all along is there is a big difference in ignorance and stupidity. In this case, most either has no information on the subject or they have been given wrong information, these people are just ignorant (and that's not a jab at anyone). Then you have people who have the same lack of knowledge or wrong info but refuse to listen to anyone else, this is stupid.[/QUOTE]

For a long time, under yet another name, I was on some kind of quest to purge Radki from existance due to my involvement in it and how much trouble it actually caused. However, Icame to find that most ignorant people into Radki wanted to stay ignorant. The ones who actually wanted to learn the truth did and the others kept practicing Radki until it wasn't a big fad for them anymore.

[QUOTE]
Unfortunately the unbendable arm isn't a very good example either, it's just a trick. It works because it causes you to work against yourself with out really knowing it. In the first step for example, you are told to extend your arm, make a fist and use all your strength/muscle to try and keep your arm straight. When you do this you are tensing your bicep, so your actually HELPING them bend your arm. The second time you are told to relax and only use what is needed to hold you arm out. In doing this you are using your triceps and now working against the other person. While is it a good lesson in body mechanics it has nothing to do with chi.[/QUOTE]

Proper body mechinics have a lot to do with Chi. This lesson in Body Mechanics is, therefore, a lesson in Chi. However, its just not quite the lesson we all thgouth ti was until this fact was brought to light.

[QUOTE]Finally, radki is NOT an art. It's more of a name given to teenagers with a little info and an over active imagination. The good thing is at that age most people had some pretty far fetched ideas about martial arts or anything else for that matter. The good thing is it may get them involved in legitimate training. It may be DBZ for these guys, for me it was Kung Fu Theater on the USA Network. Everyone has to start someplace.[/QUOTE]

That's a good way of looking at it. I like your philosophy. Its pretty similar to the common view of the Ninja in comparison to the historical equivalent or the modern X-Kan schools.

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#88458 - 12/18/04 03:51 AM Re: lets get this stuff straight already, and hope it dies down
Anonymous
Unregistered


So guys, what CAN ki do?

Why ki? Why not just body mechanics etc?

The more documentaries I saw on Chinese MA the more I understood chi to just mean breath, chi manipulation techniques I believed to just be a combination of mental focus, and maybe extra oxygenation of relative muscle groups.

What is it, what does it do and where does it fit into martial arts?

Also, why would Bruce Lee (no im not a groupie) determine that it bears no relation to fighting, bearing in mind he learned Tai chi from his dad from quite a young age, and is said to have done a fair amount of cross training in chinese MA?

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#88459 - 12/18/04 11:54 AM Re: lets get this stuff straight already, and hope it dies down
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here is my take on chi and what it is. Chi is the thing that makes you alive. As a large multi cellular organism with many different cells how is it that when you die all your cells die to. If one looks at biology single cells will live if they have nutrient. You bodys cells wont even if they have nutrients. There for chi is combination of all your bodys automated functions, your personal magnetic field, your muscles and your personal homeostasis (even temperature and psi balance throught the body). Controling your chi allows one to control all of these things. The better your training the better control you have. Tibeten monks can raise their body temperatures so they can survive in freezing cold conditions. Im sure with extensive training one can optomize the use of the skeletal muscular system. Thats my very scientific explanation, I'm certain someone will get oh here and just lecture you with some canned response.

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#88460 - 12/18/04 09:11 PM Re: lets get this stuff straight already, and hope it dies down
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shonuff:
So guys, what CAN ki do?

Why ki? Why not just body mechanics etc?[/QUOTE]

Because Ki is a nice two-letter word that emcompasses all the different terms like "mental focus, body mechanics, proper rest, energy, breath, food, etc." into one basic term.

[QUOTE]The more documentaries I saw on Chinese MA the more I understood chi to just mean breath, chi manipulation techniques I believed to just be a combination of mental focus, and maybe extra oxygenation of relative muscle groups.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. However, its easier to just explain what Ki is once and then call it Ki the rest of the time instead of explaining what Ki is every time.

[QUOTE]What is it, what does it do and where does it fit into martial arts?[/QUOTE]

It fits in with proper breath methods for fighting.




Also, why would Bruce Lee (no im not a groupie) determine that it bears no relation to fighting, bearing in mind he learned Tai chi from his dad from quite a young age, and is said to have done a fair amount of cross training in chinese MA?[/QUOTE]

I wish he were still alive so I could ask him myself.

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#88461 - 12/19/04 12:11 AM Re: lets get this stuff straight already, and hope it dies down
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hunter:
Here is my take on chi and what it is. Chi is the thing that makes you alive. As a large multi cellular organism with many different cells how is it that when you die all your cells die to. If one looks at biology single cells will live if they have nutrient. You bodys cells wont even if they have nutrients. [/QUOTE]

I was under the impression cells die with the body because oxygenated blood flow ceases (due to heart and lungs stopping) thus depriving them of nutrients and fuel.

As for terminology... the japanese word ki, means energy. Their word for tired uses the same "ki" and effectively means they have a lack of it. as far as application goes, talking about transmiting energy in a strike or redirecting it makes sense, but cultivating and generating for health and fighting power? This is where the issue gets confused.

[QUOTE]
Because Ki is a nice two-letter word that emcompasses all the different terms like "mental focus, body mechanics, proper rest, energy, breath, food, etc." into one basic term.
[/QUOTE]

So IMA training cultivates proper rest breath and food?

[QUOTE]
Exactly. However, its easier to just explain what Ki is once and then call it Ki the rest of the time instead of explaining what Ki is every time.
[/QUOTE]

Ki was explained somewhere? Makes sense I suppose, I just can't be bothered to search through the DBZ crap to find it.

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#88462 - 12/19/04 12:15 AM Re: lets get this stuff straight already, and hope it dies down
Anonymous
Unregistered


There is a strange shock effect that causes the whole body to die at once. This happens when theres a large amount of damage to the body in general. If your shot through the heart you die instantly, eventhough you should still live for a little while.

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