FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 40 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
old1, Leonar, ManLar, Vimido, raya
22925 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 4
Ronin1966 3
ergees 1
Victor Smith 1
swordy 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Martial News
by Matakiant
09/23/14 06:42 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
Recent Posts
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by cxt
10/10/14 10:08 AM
The Karate punch
by Ronin1966
10/09/14 03:16 PM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Forum Stats
22925 Members
36 Forums
35582 Topics
432509 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#87278 - 08/11/04 09:13 AM Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


<This follows the results of the anatomy thread. Basically I want to test the a theory about breathing methods, by having any volunteers post their findings in this thread. This should be fun and logical at the same time.>

Those taoists were pretty tricky in the way they worded things (or at least from the translations i've read).

Now, in light of my latest discussions with scott, fisherman, bossman, nenipp and others, it seems the diaphram is the energy pump which creates the potential difference that changes the electrical conductivity of the body. Here's what i think i figured out regarding how this relates to the classics.

The translated works refer to the following breathing methods as such:

taoist breathing = prenatal/prebirth

buddhist breathing = postnatal/postbirth

In taoist breathing, you draw up your diaphgram and hui yin cavity first and this action sucks the air in.

In buddhist breathing, you expand the air in your belly first and expanding the abdomen to full capacity pushes the diaphram up after

In other words, the pre/post birth were analogies for the order in which you use your diaphgram...

now since every good revelation should be grounded in reality, i did an experiement and here's what i found......

i practiced both buddhist breathing and taoist breathing in the method described above for sitting medidtation, and found the tendons/facia in my abdomen are rather reluctant to comply, but that i could draw in a small amount of air using only the diaphram in each case (with the buddhist breathing this was like an extra puff after fully inhaling). Now since it was clear that this area wasn't yet conditioned to accomplish these movements to the degree i wanted, i decided to try it lying down, where the tension and resistance are significantly less. It worked like a charm, and after a few minutes my whole body was sort of pulsing. This made me more aware, and energetic. (shouldn't have tried this before bed..haha). The catch? Lying down you can't store the qi in the dan tien so that you can direct or circulate it, it goes everwhere on its own because none of the circuits are closed off to trap it.

I believe this is why it has been said that you can not expect to have above average qi without an above average abdomen.


Now for my 2 questions:

1) How do you get the timing down with these movements?

2) Is there a difference in effect based on how rapidly you move the diaphgram? I know the breath needs to be slow, but what about the diaphgram's movements? This is related to question number 1, but a little different.

Now, for the fun part. A SCIENCE experiment.

1) Pick a breathing method.
2) Try it both lying down and sitting up
3) Observe and record the effects of both lying down and sitting
4) Try it with different timings
5) Post your results on this thread.

Remember to let the diaphgram do the work, so that you can barely feel the air stream by your nose. If you feel short of breath, then its ok to use your nose for a stronger inhale, just include what happened on your post. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG])


SAMPLE DATA
1) Buddhist breathing
Lying Down Slow Diaphgram .... I felt 'X'
Lying Down Fast Diaphgram .... I felt 'Y'
Sitting Up Slow Diaphgram .... I felt 'A'
Sitting Up Fast Diaphgram .... I felt 'B'

I will then take all results grounded in reality (hopefully we get alot of good posts) and compile them and summarize the findings. Qualitative studies don't give absolute results, but if we get enough data and variety of people testing, it can perhaps point in the right direction.

Thanks in advance, Look forward to replies

~Ed


DISCLAIMER: All movements should be relaxed and gentle. They shouldn't be forced past your body's current capacity. Neither breathing method works properly or generates energy when you are straining. I can't accept responsibility for injury. If you happen to experience pain or discomfort as a result of attempting one of these methods, simply stop and report that as your finding. There is nothing wrong with that, you are contributing to what i hope to be a valuable study. It will only be valuable if we dont fudge anything. If you are worried about injury, there is no obligation to try the exercises. Sorry to be all legal, but i really dont want to see anyone get hurt. Moderators, if you feel this is not in the spirit of this form, you can remove this thread and i wont be offended.

[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-11-2004).]

[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-11-2004).]

Top
#87279 - 08/11/04 09:39 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Actually Ed this is perfect and what is needed more in the IMA's IMO.

Scott

Top
#87280 - 08/11/04 10:00 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Hi MrEd,

would you like to clarify a little?
First I'll give a brief explanation on the anathomy and function (regarding breathing) of the diaphragm, which hopefully will shed some light on my inquiry:

The diaphragm ("D") is a dome-shaped muscle that separates the abdominal from the thoracic cavities, basically it's the floor for heart and lungs and roof (celing?) for stomach intestines (probably not correct terms, but you know what I mean?).
When the D is relaxed the pressure from the abdomen causes it to bulge upward, squeezing the lungs and compressing the air in them. The airpressure in the lungs thus becoming higher than that outside the body, causes the exhalation to take place.

Next the contraction of the diaphragm brings it DOWNward, forcing the intestines to give way, hence belly out in diaphragm/abdominal/buddhist breathing.
This makes the lungs expand (volume grows), and lowers the airpressure inside them.
And of course when the pressure outside of the body becomes greater than that inside the lungs (provided there is no obstacles, naturalment!) air will flow in to the lungs. As you might have guessed, this is called inhalation.


You wrote:
"In taoist breathing, you draw up your diaphgram and hui yin cavity first and this action sucks the air in."

My comment: you can't **** in air by drawing UP your D!

"In buddhist breathing, you expand the air in your belly first and expanding the abdomen to full capacity pushes the diaphram up after"

This also doesn't make sense, for the same reason plus, the air stays in your lungs, it doesn't go into your belly.

Please note that I'm not saying your research is a bad idea, it's just that the description strikes me as a bit confusing, which means I strongly doubt that everyone reading it is going to understand it the same way...
...and if they do, it probably won't be what you meant by it )

Top
#87281 - 08/11/04 10:04 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Actually I understand what he is saying just fine.

SCott

Top
#87282 - 08/11/04 10:31 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
I believe you kempoman, I also believe you're slightly above average on this forum, when it comes to the understanding how to use the body in moving and breathing!

I honestly am not sure what it is we're supposed to do, and what it all means.

You can always delete my drivel, if you find it useless, but I'm sure MrEd won't mind clarifying just a little bit (or you can do it for him?)!

Top
#87283 - 08/11/04 11:13 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


Scott and nenipp,

I will clarify after in a few hours. Nenipp you have a valid point. I was explaining it more on how it feels internally and apparently without proper consideration of how the diaphgram actually moves. I'm guessing Kempoman can relate to how i said it feels based on his yrs of experience. I recognize that different people will interpret these sensations differntly, but if we capture as much of those differences as possible, we might hit on some good common ground.

That said, and because i certainly dont want to mislead anyone, I want to be as correct as possible both with the anatomy and description of feeling. I will go back and study the anatomy based on what you have written and try to coordinate what i feel inside to what is going on physically.....

Back later,
~MrEd

[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-11-2004).]

Top
#87284 - 08/11/04 11:46 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Thank you MrEd, that's exactly what I thought and asked for, great!
BTW, I've played around with it a bit already to see if that would help me "get the point", I think it made things a little clearer, but I certainly look forward to your clarification.
I promise I'll give my comments afterward!

Top
#87285 - 08/11/04 01:54 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


nenipp, kempoman,

I'm not done researching this yet....but i've included some links where i'm basing the following opinion on.

Scott you mentioned keeping the yin/yang principle in mind and i think that is what is working here. When you breathe in, the (interior and exterior) intercostal muscles pull the contents of the abdominal cavity up and back out of the way, which makes the intercostal space larger. The yang is the active movement of clearing the way via using (contracting) the intercostals, the yin is that when you do this, the diaphram moves down (contracts) but as it is attached to the lungs, pulls them down further, making a temporary vaccuum that causes air to rush in. The better you can clear the abdominals out of the way, the bigger the hole and presumeably, the stronger the vaccuum.

But the story doesnt stop there because, there are other forces at work, namely friction and resistance which counteract the strength of the vaccuum. The stronger the flow, the stronger the resistance to that flow. If you have a slower, but longer flow, the reistance is less and proportionaly speaking, less oxygen gets wasted in the conversion process. Thus, exercising the methods of breathing we were talking about
previously are designed to optomize performance of this mechanism.

This can be done by strengthening the vacuum with fascia/tendon work (intercostals pull abdominals furhter out of the way, diaphragm pulls lungs down better). If you've ever had to replace a pain in the butt sweeper bag, you know that they blow up much better and can store more dirt, if you first fully unravel it.

The other way to do this is by lowering the resistance, using slow, sustained, light breathing.

There is probably a way to increase the diameter of the air pathways in the lungs which will lower the resistance by a greater then proportional amount. Very external work such as running, sparring etc... seems to do this naturally although i'm not sure of the mechanism behind it. Maybe there is an internal counterpart exercise?

ahh, as always, answering questions makes more questions.....

~ED


**** GOOD LINK ***** http://www.buteyko.co.nz/asthma/facts/mechanics.cfm


*** PICTURES AND OTHER DESCRIPTIONS OF BREATHING*****
http://www.lesmills.com/resources/downloads/mainSite/pdf/breath.PDF
http://www.umm.edu/imagepages/19380.htm
http://health.allrefer.com/pictures-images/diaphragm.html

Top
#87286 - 08/11/04 01:59 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


Two more quick things....

1) Still not sure exactly what muscles when i'm sitting and breathing are creating this resistance and pressure that prevents my light breathing from succeeding to its utmost. nenipp, your anatomy expertise would be helpful here.

2) Even if you can use this vacuum pump method to create more oxygen, it takes time to work. Your body's chemical makeup must first adapt to the extra oxygen it is now being graced with. So, it seems just like with running or riding a bike, continued practice (i.e. repeated stimulus) is necessary to make the transformation (response) valid.

Top
#87287 - 08/12/04 09:41 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Hi MrEd,

I can give you a generic answer and you can try to figure out if it's applicable in your case.

It's quite normal that relaxed abdominal breathing is easier in supine position than sitting, in fact, when somebody's breathing get's more "restricted" when he/she is supine, it may even indicate neurosis or risk for psychosis

But that doesn't mean it's impossible to achieve full freedom of breath in standing and sitting as well, it just takes (for most of us A LOT) of time and effort.

Reasons can be:
-you need a little (or a lot of) tension in your abdominal muscles because of some misalignment in your posture
-feelings that we don't have the time or strenght to work with properly/conflicts within ourselves or between us and our familymembers or colleges etc tend to manifest themselves as muscular tension, typically in the diaphragm and abdominal region

Time and practice will eventually mend this, the fact that your breathing is more free when you're lying down, indicates that it's safe for you to work with it (=if it's psychological "stuff" that hinders you, it's probably not that heavy)

ps: it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you if this is the case, it's healthy reactions to protect one's sense in crises or situations of emotional overload and it happens to practically all of us

Top
#87288 - 08/12/04 10:55 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


Being on of the less experienced members on this board, I'm not sure if any of my imput will help. But in my short experience with breathing exercises, I have noticed a whole lot of heat generated when pulling the diaphragm DOWN to create a vaccume effect for breathing. In the method I used, the pelvic floor diaphragm (?hu yin?) is pulled up during exhalation. Also, you keep the regular diaphragm as far down as possible upon exhalation so when the air is fully out of his lungs your organs are compressed between the two diaphragm like this-
)organs( - with the parenthesis being the diaphragms flipped sideways.

As far as storing oxygen in the belly goes, I was under the impression that you are supposed to VISUALIZE breathing into the belly so that your attention would be focused there instead of the lungs so your abdomen is where the energy would go, not the chest.

There are two main exercises I have done to gain diaphragm strength and flexibility in the lungs and abdomen.

One is to simply lie on your back with knees bent so that the lower back is flat on the ground. Then use a weight, (I started with 2.5lb disc and then moved up from there.)
Place the weight on your abdomen and commence breathing with your "vaccume."

The second exercise is potentially dangerous, and can be erased by a moderator without insult to me.
While sitting, I would vaccume inhale as much air as possible. Then with the diaphragm down, SWALLOW more air with the throat into the lungs until the pressure is great. Now seal the air at the throat, mouth and nose so none excapes. Lastly, press the diaphragm down as hard as possible into the abdomen area. As you push the diaphragm from above as far into the abdomen as possible, you should allow the abdominal region expand from all sides outward- not just the stomach. All sides, front, sides and the back around the spine must expand. Hold breath as long as possible, WITHOUT PASSING OUT! USE EXTREME CAUTION!!

The last exercise may have been used by others before, but to the best of my knowledge, this is my own exercise that I have adapted from other exercises and I don't want any one to get hurt from it. -So I am attaching the same disclaimer to this post that MrEd used.

DISCLAIMER: All movements should be relaxed and gentle. They shouldn't be forced past your body's current capacity. Neither breathing method works properly or generates energy when you are straining. I can't accept responsibility for injury. If you happen to experience pain or discomfort as a result of attempting one of these methods, simply stop and report that as your finding. There is nothing wrong with that, you are contributing to what I hope to be a valuable study. It will only be valuable if we don't fudge anything. If you are worried about injury, there is no obligation to try the exercises. Sorry to be all legal, but I really don't want to see anyone get hurt. Moderators, if you feel this is not in the spirit of this form, you can remove this thread and I wont be offended.

Top
#87289 - 08/12/04 02:59 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
I feel we might be kidnapping MrEd's thread here, maybe you should start it all over when you're ready to, Ed?

Lucid,
in taoist breathing we're trying to accomplish something similar to what you described: )organs( ,only it's done on inhalation (yang) then on exhalation we relax (jin)

I think streching and exercising the diaphragm is healthy and rids us of unnecessary tension, but I agree that the more extreme stuff should be done with caution.

Top
#87290 - 08/12/04 03:24 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


neinipp,
Maybe the "block" i mentioned previously is actually pointing to a need to further train the diaphgram. i think it can be trained externally, because when sprinting or swimming, the air intake is more forceful and this naturally stretches the diaphgram. I think its harder to train internally, but there is probably also great value in this. I dont have any posture problems, or mental imbalances that i'm aware of. This may be presumptious on my part, but i think its just a matter of putting the time into conditioning this area.

Lucid, i agree visualization is key. When breathing, I concentrate, on the shen center in the head and the dan tien at the same time. i read somewhere that if your mind is concentrating on two separate points at the same time, this blocks incoming thoughts. I've tried it, it seems to help with concentration.

Do you guys, actively contract your diaphgrams down? Maybe this what i'm missing. I had tried this previously but it started trembling, so i figured that it wasn't the right way. I've been using the intercostals, relaxing the abdominal area, and letting the pulling of the intercostals up to cause the diphgram to go down....

Maybe, qigong practice is similar to its external counterparts, like lifting weights or sprinting where there is training discomfort (like muscle burn, not muscle strain/pull!!). but then once your muscles are stronger, you can lift more without as much effort. Although, it is dangerous because if you over train your diaphgram, there can be much worse consequences then a strained bicep or quad.

That said, it would seem some of practice should be dedicated to training these muscles, and other practice towards relaxing and feeling the qi more. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

I dont feel hijacked, this is all good info, keep on posting!

~ED

[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-12-2004).]

Top
#87291 - 08/12/04 11:19 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Hey now MrEd, just when I thought maybe you're serious, you go and write something like this...
"there can be much worse consequences then a strained bicep"
...what on earth could be worse than a strained bicep??

But seriously, I suppose your D could be just in need of some more conditioning. In that case you're lucky, took me more than ten yrs to "feel free" in that area / but well worth it!

When I do reverse breathing or relaxed abdominal breathing I don't actively work with the D, but when i use more deliberate abdominal breathing i find that actively pulling the diaphragm down helps coordinating breath and abdominal movement (if that makes any sense at all)


[This message has been edited by nenipp (edited 08-12-2004).]

Top
#87292 - 08/13/04 07:36 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Great thread thus far everybody!

A question regarding the breath...
I am curious as to what the functional differences are between Taoist and Buhddist breathing. What are the benefits of one versus the other?

About the experiment...
I have noticed that when I exhale using the Taoist method that there feels like a dropping quality in my body. Could this be one of the components of Fajing?

I feel the D move more if I am lying on my back. We played with this before in class. The teacher said that the only place that the D physically move is in the back, just above the kidneys. I feel this movement more with the Buhddist breath.

About bringing the breath into the belly ...
Durring a Qigong seminar with Luo Dexiu last year he talked a bit about 'breathing to the tan tien'. In this he said that it is not the breath that is drawn to the abdomen, but the mind. He said "you have no lungs in your belly". [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
The idea is this; the mind guides the yi, and the chi follows the yi. Bringing the mind to an area - placing your will and attention there alone raises the energy level of that area.

Once again - cool thread...
Keep er' rollin..

Chris

Top
#87293 - 08/13/04 08:37 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


As someone who has injured both his bicep and diaphgram, i can attest to the fact that pulling internal muslces used in breathing hurts much worse. To rehab the bicep i just had to not use it for awhile and slowly bring it back into action, but i couldnt stop breathing while my abs were healing.

Fisherman is right, you guide your mind down to the dan tien, the air doesnt reach there. Apparently i generated some unintended confusion with my post about this.

[QUOTE]Fisherman: "Bringing the mind to an area - placing your will and attention there alone raises the energy level of that area.
"[/QUOTE]

I've noticed based on how one chooses to concentrate (awareness vs. focusing on dan tien), you can actually either feel the air reach the bottom of your lungs (awareness), or if you use the visualization sometimes it feels as if there is a a seemless flow of energy down to the dan tien (focusing there), regardless of the fact the air is still in the lungs. Have you guys felt these sensations separately?

Now to answer fisherman's question regarding the functional differences between taoist and buddhist methods. I'm paraphrasing Dr. Jwing-Ming Yang's book, "the Root of Chinese Qigong" which lists these as the main differences:

BUDDHIST METHOD
Organ Massage
More active abdominals (a better energy pump)
better qi flow from kidneys to lower dan tien
Increase Water qi (this is analogous to original qi, i think it refers to the quality of the qi that gets ciruclated)

TAOIST METHOD
Easier to lead qi to extremities
Applications to martial arts by leading qi
Good for marrow washing
(I think that because there is a more active pumping on the part of the individual it is easier to overcome resistance and gravity when guiding qi using this method)

If anyone wants to comment on Fire / Water Qi and their expereinces with it, feel free to do so. I understand the concept but havent progressed enough to sense it in my body yet.

~ED

[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-13-2004).]

Top
#87294 - 08/13/04 09:21 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
You guys... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

I want to interject a training method for the dan tien that I was taught by the most powerful IMA teachers I have ever felt, as it seems to have bearing on this thread and this accomplishment.

He showed us to take air into the dan tien area using abdominal breathing and the use the intercostals to direct it down and out (around) then twist the torso to the side and hold this position.

Repeated on the other side and then also actual back and forth body twisting. I did it for a bit and then quit because of the pain I was feeling in strange places in my midsection (deep). Looks like this could be something that would casue the areas that we are discussing to be made stronger just like the holding of zhuan zhuang does for the legs.


What do you think?

Scott

P.S.

I am guilty of not reading all the posts yet so bear with me. MrEd I am going to post some results on your experiment.

Top
#87295 - 08/13/04 10:41 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


Scott,

Thanks for the exercise!!

When i tried it standing, i felt a stitch on either side. When i tried it sitting, it felt like there was a lot of pressure inside me as well as some of the stiches...

Do you try and pull down the diaphgram as you are moving the intercostals?

I only tried it briefly as i'm at work, but im sure i will realize new levels of pain once i have more time to set down and practice it. It seems to be addressing the same area that i feel tense up and block my progress when trying to breathe lightly to minimize resistance, which is a good thing.

Regards,
~ED

Top
#87296 - 08/13/04 11:05 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm still confused about the role of the intercostal muscles in all of these exercises. Mainly, how to control the intercostals in conjunction with the diaphragm is my problem. I guess I still don't understand their function fully...
Shoot, now I don't want to do the experiment until I know more about what I am doing...

Oh, and before I forget, thanks to all who helped me with my alignment issues with my freaky feet.

[This message has been edited by Lucid Warrior (edited 08-13-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Lucid Warrior (edited 08-13-2004).]

Top
#87297 - 08/13/04 12:11 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think its safe if you pracitce properly. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

The pain kempoman and i were talking about comes from stretching/strengthing internal tendons and fascia. The key is not to overdo it in any practice session. You can gradually strengthen them safely i think.

To use a weight lifting analogy again, you don't train the same muscle group on consecutive days. This leads to a well-documented condition called "overtraining" with lots of info on the web about it.

Your muscles make great gains but need proper time to recover. Weightlifting or any activity creates tiny tears in existing muscle which stimulates them to overheal, building additional muscle tissue. Thus when lifting to build muscle you give your body this healing time before attempting the adaption process to build more muscle again.

I think the same overtraining philosophy applies to internals. But since they have different demands placed on them then muscle groups, I dont know what the recovery time for tendons and fascia are. I am not well versed enough in anatomy, but maybe nenipp can help us with that one [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]


As long as you are cautious and aware of your body, you should be fine.

Respectfully,
~ed

Top
#87298 - 08/13/04 12:42 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
In my experience the connective tissue tends to 'be ready' quicker than muscle.

This type of training tends to be less invasive than weight training. This coupled with the 'nature' of the tissue may make for quicker recovery.

And like Ed (oddly enough this was the name of the man who gave me the exersizes) said the pain is not an injury just 'something' going on in there.

Scott

Top
#87299 - 08/13/04 02:12 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Kempoman,
I wholeheartEDly agree with you, when we work on fascia and ligaments and tendons (connective tissue) we don't normally cause the kind of micro ruptures that we do on muscle tissue in weight training (btw that's where I started well over 20 yrs ago ), therefore the recovery time is shorter.
If we overdo the training though (which none of us would even think of, of course ) the time is much longer than for muscle tissue.

[This message has been edited by nenipp (edited 08-13-2004).]

Top
#87300 - 08/15/04 05:37 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
ok, my 2c worth...

As I understand it, Buddhist breathing is what I do normally all the time.

It is the breathing normally used with Sanchin kata in my system.

Daoist/Taoist is the reverse of Buddhist and is where your belly goes out when you breathe out.

It is the breathing normally used with Tensho kata in my system.

I understand it is used to move ki to the extremities for protection and to make striking more effective.

Buddhist breathing comes naturally to me and I have no problems doing it at any time and in any position and when doing anything at the same time.

Daoist breathing however is much more difficult for me to sustain and I feel it is a matter of concentration all the time to do it.

Top
#87301 - 08/16/04 09:01 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey Reiki,

Thanks for the observations. That seems to concur with what i've been experiencing too.

You're right reverse breathing takes practice and was used by the taoists as a faster way to lead qi to extremities for martial purposes. I was reading some more, and i have another half-baked hypothesis as to why nei dan qigong can be so tricky (at least for me).

Traditionally in MA, i think master's taught their students how to strenghten their abdomens, tendons and fascia, before speaking to them about the energy concepts.

When a student had progressed to the point to do the breathing and meditation, there abdomens could already open to full capacity.

In modern times, when research about a broad range of principles is readily available and not presneted sequentially, there is a tendency to try it all at once (at least for me). I dont know if this will help others, but i now try and separate my qigong into two phases:

1) Strengthening the tendons, fascia, etc...
2) Deep relaxation, and the concentration of energy.

I think this allows progress in both separately, to achieve an overall result.

~Ed

Top
#87302 - 08/16/04 09:59 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
I have really enjoyed reading this thread. There has been some great information concerning breathing posted. Its good to see that there are folks on this forum that are attempting to learn the IMA's as a whole.

Something that I have noticed lately is that the Taoist breathing methods give my internal organs more of a massage than the buhddist method. Maybe this is because we are already doing the buhddist method naturally when we breathe.

I have been incorperating the taoist method when I do my taiji form. This is the form that my body and mind are the most familiar with so I can do the movements without having to think that much about them, they just flow from one to the other. This alows me to focus on things like breathing.

I have been timming the movements with the breath. Example; if the movement is primarily yang in nature then I am exhaling, if it is yin then I am inhaling. The breath and the movement has to be fluid with no stopping or holding the breath. I have done this before with buhddist breathing but not so much with the taoist method.

I have noticed that I feel more relaxed yet energetic, more balanced I guess. This is where I am feeling the organs being massaged. This is most likely due to the brathing in conjunction with the different postures of the body. Each massaging a different organ or area inside my body.
Very cool stuff. The next thing I plan on trying tonight is putting the taoist method to use doing the 8 Brocades qigong set that I do.
I'll let y'all know what I feel.

Chris

Top
#87303 - 08/17/04 10:49 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Reiki:

Daoist breathing however is much more difficult for me to sustain and I feel it is a matter of concentration all the time to do it.
[/QUOTE]

Reiki,

Yeah, I have noticed a wonderful Zen koan like quality to the exercise. If you don't push the diaphragm down very hard, you don't get enough oxygen, but the harder you push to get more oxygen.. the more oxygen it takes to sustain the effort. A great conditioner. -It takes a great deal more focus to sustain the effort under these conditions, although with better conditioning, I suppose it gets easier.

MrEd,

I don't know if it was from the experiment, but I had some really wild dreams the night I practiced. -a whole other subject

I did Taoist breathing in horse stance, standing, with slow diaphragm movements. More on that when I have seated and lying breathing to compare it to.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrEd:

In modern times, when research about a broad range of principles is readily available and not presented sequentially, there is a tendency to try it all at once (at least for me.) I don't know if this will help others, but I now try and separate my qigong into two phases:

1) Strengthening the tendons, fascia, etc...
2) Deep relaxation, and the concentration of energy.

I think this allows progress in both separately, to achieve an overall result.
~Ed
[/QUOTE]

I have been seeing this lately as keeping my feet on the ground rooted safely while my head floats in the clouds. I don't know if that makes sense. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

steve

Top
#87304 - 08/17/04 10:57 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


Makes sense, i loved the zen koan reference. I think that sums it up perfectly. The energy comes through the coordination of the two. But they can be trained separately which will make their balanced effect stronger when they come together.

Thanks, I'm really learnin alot from this thread,

~Ed

Top
#87305 - 08/17/04 02:12 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrEd:

Thanks, I'm really learnin alot from this thread,
~Ed
[/QUOTE]

yeah, me too.

Top
#87306 - 08/17/04 05:19 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
I found even the Buddhist breathing exquisitely difficult during testing at my last grading.

This was most apparent when I was punched and kicked in the stomach & legs, and generally pushed about by the graders as they tested me in Sanchin kata. I had to work very hard keeping my focus but I passed with flying colours so I must have done something right!

Luckily I was too heavy to pick up, unlike one girl who was picked up and moved about the place like a pawn.... she forgot her place in the kata and was visibly upset.

I mentioned before somewhere here that during both Sanchin and Tensho how the ki accumulates within the body in these katas, and particularly in Tensho with the open palm strikes it blurts out in a big wave...

So for all those who say that kata has nothing to do with movement of ki, they are very much mistaken.

It can be quite disconcerting the first few time this happens, but I am used to strange things happening to me because of reiki!

Top
#87307 - 08/28/04 12:11 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi guys! I'm a new member and as I read the whole thread I practiced the differences between the Buddhist and Taoist breathing. In my Japanese GoJu Ryu school we emphasize what must be the Buddhist style of breathing. However, something that has not been mentioned here is that it is imperitive that the shoulders do not move while breathing. A common problem for most westerners. Only after much practice can the diaphram be completely isolated from the rest of the musculature. We tell our students to watch toddlers at they strut about with their big Buddah-bellies sticking out! And as they sleep, only the abdomen rises and falls. Also watch other animals' (a dog as it pants) breath; complete isolation and efficiency. Our big brains have a tendancy to get in the way of all that. But also have the ability to harness the newfound energy once we allow it to manifest itself! Keep up the scientific method MrEd. Keep us moving foreward...

[This message has been edited by Xaq (edited 08-28-2004).]

Top
#87308 - 09/08/04 09:45 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Akiba Offline
Member

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: London, UK
ON TOUCHING CATS
It made me chuckle reading this thread when 'reiki' (Nickname) talked about using qi to affect her horses because it reminded me of something I did a few years back....

One Christmas eve I had finished work with a female colleague and we went to hers to get ready to go to the company do. While she was having a bath I sat in the front room and her black cat walked in. I was about 22 at the time and was in the prime of studying with my late Master under whom I first felt qi.

As this cat was standing between my legs I reached down and stroked it and it purred away. Then, for some-reason not to cause any real harm or anything I thought about projecting or transferring my qi to it. I held my hand only two inches away and moved as if to stroke it from tail to head. When I did this its hairs stood up and it meowed on a fast exit from the room. A little shocked and a little guilty I noted not to do that again. But it was strange.

At the time I used to be quite receptive to feelings. I didn't see dead people but I just 'felt' stuff from places. Later that same night my colleague and I were talking about such things and I mentioned that I had such a feeling from her flat. When I said that in the bathroom I had a wave of gloom and depression settle upon me and struggled to draw a good breath she went pale. Apparently the woman who lived there before had committed suicide in the bath! (Que X-file music)

Least to say that at that age I embarked upon a rigorous drinking and partying programme and lost all sensitivity to such things. (Although six years on I'm working hard to get it all back)

So now to present, with my pet cat. Today he has just returned from spending two nights at the vets (Which it seems is more expensive than a 100 per night hotel!) The reason: He had trouble peeing and then only passed a few drops of blood. Being a little down I let him sleep on the bed and as he settled I placed my hand upon him and pictured (I'm quite visual) in my minds eye bathing him in a strong white light. This light washed all the way through him except where I could almost 'see' his bladder and there was a small dark clover shaped cloud almost 'pinched' at one end of the organ. I tried and tried to wash this darkness out with the light (my qi?) but only managed to reduce its size after a short while.

Having returned from the vets they said that in his x-ray there is a small dark area in his bladder that looks like it might be a slight tear or something (she actually has no idea). His been given a clean bill for now and is home being fussed over.

And FINALLY:
Go and see my new thread please...
"The MrEd experiment"

Top
#87309 - 03/03/05 12:00 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


bump.

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga