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#87298 - 08/13/04 12:42 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
In my experience the connective tissue tends to 'be ready' quicker than muscle.

This type of training tends to be less invasive than weight training. This coupled with the 'nature' of the tissue may make for quicker recovery.

And like Ed (oddly enough this was the name of the man who gave me the exersizes) said the pain is not an injury just 'something' going on in there.

Scott

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#87299 - 08/13/04 02:12 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
nenipp Offline
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Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Kempoman,
I wholeheartEDly agree with you, when we work on fascia and ligaments and tendons (connective tissue) we don't normally cause the kind of micro ruptures that we do on muscle tissue in weight training (btw that's where I started well over 20 yrs ago ), therefore the recovery time is shorter.
If we overdo the training though (which none of us would even think of, of course ) the time is much longer than for muscle tissue.

[This message has been edited by nenipp (edited 08-13-2004).]

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#87300 - 08/15/04 05:37 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
ok, my 2c worth...

As I understand it, Buddhist breathing is what I do normally all the time.

It is the breathing normally used with Sanchin kata in my system.

Daoist/Taoist is the reverse of Buddhist and is where your belly goes out when you breathe out.

It is the breathing normally used with Tensho kata in my system.

I understand it is used to move ki to the extremities for protection and to make striking more effective.

Buddhist breathing comes naturally to me and I have no problems doing it at any time and in any position and when doing anything at the same time.

Daoist breathing however is much more difficult for me to sustain and I feel it is a matter of concentration all the time to do it.

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#87301 - 08/16/04 09:01 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey Reiki,

Thanks for the observations. That seems to concur with what i've been experiencing too.

You're right reverse breathing takes practice and was used by the taoists as a faster way to lead qi to extremities for martial purposes. I was reading some more, and i have another half-baked hypothesis as to why nei dan qigong can be so tricky (at least for me).

Traditionally in MA, i think master's taught their students how to strenghten their abdomens, tendons and fascia, before speaking to them about the energy concepts.

When a student had progressed to the point to do the breathing and meditation, there abdomens could already open to full capacity.

In modern times, when research about a broad range of principles is readily available and not presneted sequentially, there is a tendency to try it all at once (at least for me). I dont know if this will help others, but i now try and separate my qigong into two phases:

1) Strengthening the tendons, fascia, etc...
2) Deep relaxation, and the concentration of energy.

I think this allows progress in both separately, to achieve an overall result.

~Ed

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#87302 - 08/16/04 09:59 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Fisherman Offline
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Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
I have really enjoyed reading this thread. There has been some great information concerning breathing posted. Its good to see that there are folks on this forum that are attempting to learn the IMA's as a whole.

Something that I have noticed lately is that the Taoist breathing methods give my internal organs more of a massage than the buhddist method. Maybe this is because we are already doing the buhddist method naturally when we breathe.

I have been incorperating the taoist method when I do my taiji form. This is the form that my body and mind are the most familiar with so I can do the movements without having to think that much about them, they just flow from one to the other. This alows me to focus on things like breathing.

I have been timming the movements with the breath. Example; if the movement is primarily yang in nature then I am exhaling, if it is yin then I am inhaling. The breath and the movement has to be fluid with no stopping or holding the breath. I have done this before with buhddist breathing but not so much with the taoist method.

I have noticed that I feel more relaxed yet energetic, more balanced I guess. This is where I am feeling the organs being massaged. This is most likely due to the brathing in conjunction with the different postures of the body. Each massaging a different organ or area inside my body.
Very cool stuff. The next thing I plan on trying tonight is putting the taoist method to use doing the 8 Brocades qigong set that I do.
I'll let y'all know what I feel.

Chris

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#87303 - 08/17/04 10:49 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Reiki:

Daoist breathing however is much more difficult for me to sustain and I feel it is a matter of concentration all the time to do it.
[/QUOTE]

Reiki,

Yeah, I have noticed a wonderful Zen koan like quality to the exercise. If you don't push the diaphragm down very hard, you don't get enough oxygen, but the harder you push to get more oxygen.. the more oxygen it takes to sustain the effort. A great conditioner. -It takes a great deal more focus to sustain the effort under these conditions, although with better conditioning, I suppose it gets easier.

MrEd,

I don't know if it was from the experiment, but I had some really wild dreams the night I practiced. -a whole other subject

I did Taoist breathing in horse stance, standing, with slow diaphragm movements. More on that when I have seated and lying breathing to compare it to.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrEd:

In modern times, when research about a broad range of principles is readily available and not presented sequentially, there is a tendency to try it all at once (at least for me.) I don't know if this will help others, but I now try and separate my qigong into two phases:

1) Strengthening the tendons, fascia, etc...
2) Deep relaxation, and the concentration of energy.

I think this allows progress in both separately, to achieve an overall result.
~Ed
[/QUOTE]

I have been seeing this lately as keeping my feet on the ground rooted safely while my head floats in the clouds. I don't know if that makes sense. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

steve

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#87304 - 08/17/04 10:57 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


Makes sense, i loved the zen koan reference. I think that sums it up perfectly. The energy comes through the coordination of the two. But they can be trained separately which will make their balanced effect stronger when they come together.

Thanks, I'm really learnin alot from this thread,

~Ed

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#87305 - 08/17/04 02:12 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrEd:

Thanks, I'm really learnin alot from this thread,
~Ed
[/QUOTE]

yeah, me too.

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#87306 - 08/17/04 05:19 PM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
I found even the Buddhist breathing exquisitely difficult during testing at my last grading.

This was most apparent when I was punched and kicked in the stomach & legs, and generally pushed about by the graders as they tested me in Sanchin kata. I had to work very hard keeping my focus but I passed with flying colours so I must have done something right!

Luckily I was too heavy to pick up, unlike one girl who was picked up and moved about the place like a pawn.... she forgot her place in the kata and was visibly upset.

I mentioned before somewhere here that during both Sanchin and Tensho how the ki accumulates within the body in these katas, and particularly in Tensho with the open palm strikes it blurts out in a big wave...

So for all those who say that kata has nothing to do with movement of ki, they are very much mistaken.

It can be quite disconcerting the first few time this happens, but I am used to strange things happening to me because of reiki!

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#87307 - 08/28/04 12:11 AM Re: Ed's Qualitative Science Experiment
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi guys! I'm a new member and as I read the whole thread I practiced the differences between the Buddhist and Taoist breathing. In my Japanese GoJu Ryu school we emphasize what must be the Buddhist style of breathing. However, something that has not been mentioned here is that it is imperitive that the shoulders do not move while breathing. A common problem for most westerners. Only after much practice can the diaphram be completely isolated from the rest of the musculature. We tell our students to watch toddlers at they strut about with their big Buddah-bellies sticking out! And as they sleep, only the abdomen rises and falls. Also watch other animals' (a dog as it pants) breath; complete isolation and efficiency. Our big brains have a tendancy to get in the way of all that. But also have the ability to harness the newfound energy once we allow it to manifest itself! Keep up the scientific method MrEd. Keep us moving foreward...

[This message has been edited by Xaq (edited 08-28-2004).]

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