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#87198 - 08/04/04 10:36 AM I need a quick anatomy lesson
Anonymous
Unregistered


This new thread comes in response to the last parts of fisherman's cool down thread.

Concerning the "pelvic floor": There seems to be two sets of muslces down there (that i can currently control). One closer to the tail bone and one more centered with the spine. I think the centered one is the hui yin (perineum). At first i was raising the muslces by the tailbone (sorry dont know the name of them), but have been trying to focus more on the hui yin. Sometimes this works, sometimes i end up raising them both at the same time.

One thing i noticed that was interesting, is the ability to control this seems depend on whether you are standing or sitting with legs crossed. I can directly access the hui yin separate from the tailbone muscles when sitting legs crossed. For me its much harder to do so when standing. Perhaps this is why they say qi can escape with reverse breathing if you arent sitting cross-legged?


My questions are:

Do the tailbone and perenium muslces together comprise what has been termed the pelvic floor?

In reverse breathing and other IMA exercises that access this region, what is the proper way to raise these muscles?

Should we be raising one of the muscle groups or both?

It know it can get confusing since there are chinese, japanese, indian, and english names for all of these muscles.

I would like to invite anyone to add their perspectives on these muscle groups which are important to IMA, and share their terminology. This could help us to understand one another in future disccusions.

Thanks in advance,

~ed

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#87199 - 08/04/04 11:58 AM Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Hi Ed

I was taught that the correct way to align the tailbone and close the hui yin was to pull in the lower abdominal muscles. This pulls the pubicoxygeal muscle in a natural way.

If you stand sideways on to a mirror you will see how effectively this works without destroying the rest of your posture.

I was taught that to pull the perenium muscle in an unnatural way was dangerous.

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#87200 - 08/04/04 06:30 PM Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Ed
Bossman is right. There are muscle within the abdominal cavity that are attached to the bottom of the pelvis. I believe thaat these are call the soad or psoad (spelling?) muscles. They are muscles that you would not use under normal circumstances. I could be wrong, (my knowlege of the anatomy is not super in depth) but I belive that they help to hold up the organs.

Gotta get to class...

Chris

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#87201 - 08/05/04 01:41 AM Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Anatomy lesseon you asked for, anatomy lesson you'll get :O)

-the psoas muscle is a part of the hip flexor (the muscle that among other things lifts your leg, iliopsoas)

-pelvic floor muscles have various functions, such as
*holding up the organs of the abdominal cavity
*in coordination with the upper diaphragm regulate the intra-abdominal pressure.
Here comes into play also the (transversus abdominis) deep abdominal muscle, which is triggered via reflex upon activation of the pelvic floor (BTW p.f. can essentially be regarded as one, my guess is that the tailbone muscle you've found is the anal sphincter)
Next step (of importance to intra abdominal pressure and spinal stability) is tension (from contraction of transversus abdominis)
in the thoracolumbal fascia, which in turn (via reflex again) activates the deep dorsal muscles, such as the multifidi (among others)
*the pelvic floor muscles can also help you in times of need, when you're not close to a bathroom )

So you see, activating the pelvic floor muscles help you gain spinal stability via the deep muscular system, leaving the long, strong dynamic muscles relaxed and free to be utilised for movement.
This is imho more effective than pushing in your lower abdomen, because that cannot be done without activating more superficial parts of the abdominal muscles (rectus- and obliquus abdominis) and unnecessary tension in them will effect freedom of movement and breath.

If this post smells of besserwisser, it's just because I know so much )



[This message has been edited by nenipp (edited 08-05-2004).]

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#87202 - 08/05/04 08:25 AM Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Hey nenipp, great description!

"*the pelvic floor muscles can also help you in times of need, when you're not close to a bathroom"

LOL. Or on a long road trip I suppose

"This is imho more effective than pushing in your lower abdomen, because that cannot be done without activating more superficial parts of the abdominal muscles (rectus- and obliquus abdominis) and unnecessary tension in them will effect freedom of movement and breath."

Great point. This is why the movement is 'internal'.

Where exactly do you get your knowlege of anatomy if you don't mind me asking?

Chris

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#87203 - 08/05/04 09:01 AM Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks guys for the excellent replies.

anyways, the bathroom analogy worked, I know exactly where the pelvic floor muscle group is. I think the hui yin is part of that. Years of drinking too much water and gatorade, have tought me to use this well.

This brings up another question though,
When doing taoist breathing and holding up the hui yin and pelvic floor, have you ever noticed your abdominals start to tremble after 5-6 minutes of the breathing practice?
Is that normal and indictiave of training internal muscles or am i doing the breathing practice incorrectly?

~ED

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#87204 - 08/05/04 08:56 PM Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
When I first started doing Bagua, I used to get these trembles all over my body. The best bet is to relax through them. Just as long as you don't feel any pain everything should be ok. Eventually the trembling should subside.

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#87205 - 08/06/04 02:06 AM Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
fisherman, sorry I can't give you a reference (book or www), it's just stuff I know (has to do with what I do for a living)

MrEd, the way I've been thaught to do taoist breathing is to completely relax when I exhale, perhaps you leave (intentionally or not) tension in the abdominal region, exhausting the muscles and thus making them tremble after a few minutes.
Unless you've been instructed otherwise, might I suggest trying to relax the abs and pelvic-floor muscles when you exhale?

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#87206 - 08/06/04 08:10 AM Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think you are both right. After my tai chi class the other day where the instructor talked about relaxation, it dawned on me that the trembling was counter to the relaxation that is the key to IMA. So i've tried to relax through them as you suggested. I have been releasing the pelvic floor on exhale wheni practice, but when i concentrate on the dan tien, i think my concentration causes me to tense the area slighlty. Oh, well, gotta keep practicing.

Maybe this deserves another thread, but how do you guys concentrate on areas such as the dan tien? When i concentrate, i imagine condensing the region and trying to focus on its center, and use visualization to imagine my breath/energy flowing in to it. I'm curious how other people do it....

Thanks for the info guys!

~ED

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#87207 - 08/06/04 09:54 AM Re: I need a quick anatomy lesson
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
...but when i concentrate on the dan tien, i think my concentration causes me to tense the area slighlty.

ED,
You may very well be right about this. Not long after I started doing Baguazhang, my teacher said this to me:
Don't think too much about feeling or all you will feel is your thinking.
I hope this makes sense, it took a while for it to sink in on me. IMO, if we put excessive focus on an area of the body it may cause it to tense. First comes relaxation, after you feel you are relaxed is when you can start to let your mind work. (Just a side note; don't loose feeling of the rest of your body when you are focusing on an area. We are looking for whole body connection right?)

...but how do you guys concentrate on areas such as the dan tien?

Last year I did a weekend seminar in Denver with Luo Dexiu. He said that this type of internal work is all about the mind and bringing it into the body.
It is the sensation that the mind is placed at the Tan Tien that you need to attain. When the mind is there and you are relaxed you should feel the natural movement of the body. It is a very subtle feeling, this is why you must be relaxed in order to feel it. If there is any tension within the body you will not be able to 'feel' the mind enter the Tan Tien.

Boy, I hope that this makes some sense. If there is further explanation needed just let me know. This is a rather deep subject (no pun intended), and it takes a while to grasp.

Chris

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